THE ACTION BUTTON DOT NET MANIFESTO: A LIST OF THE THIRTY-THREE BEST GAMES OF ALL-TIME

a review of The Action Button Dot Net Manifesto: A List Of The Thirty-three Best Games Of All-time
a videogame developed by Action Button Entertainment
and published by Action Button Dot Net
for Action Button Dot Net
text by Action Button Staff

4 stars

Bottom line: The Action Button Dot Net Manifesto: A List Of The Thirty-three Best Games Of All-time is “a list of the thirty-three best videogames of all-time.”

(compiled and written by the action button dot net staff)

design by rerorero

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that videogames are created awesome.
. . .

Uhh. Not really sure how to follow that up. Here goes, anyway:

We are very often accused of hating every game that is ever released; this is not true. We only hate about 99% of them.

Therefore, as something of a massive insurance policy, as something to point to every time someone says we complain too much about trivial things and should just “relax” because these are “games” are you’re supposed to have “fun” when you play them, we have compiled this thorough list of what we consider to be the thirty-three best games of all-time, and written monstrously long reviews of all thirty-three of those games.
The choices on this list — save for one — are not made with the intention of riling anybody up. We have chosen simply and mathematically and scientifically. The criteria for a game’s inclusion — well, the criteria are actually pretty dodgy and antisocial, though let’s just pretend that we picked games that we really love — a lot — and that possess a clean aesthetic, self-assured graphical and sonic presentation, streamlined mechanics, and common-sensical level design.

Actually, wow. That’s really about all there is to this list: clean games with crunchy, frictionous play mechanics, self-confident graphics and sound, and natural flows, where the in-game challenges get progressively more and more difficult due solely to the arrangement of obstacles and positioning of enemies, not because you’re under-leveled or ill-equipped: in most of these games, the game is over when you are not good enough, not because you don’t possess the orange lantern, whose red fire is the only thing that can burn down blue trees.

Of course, there will be slight exceptions, in which case we demand your immediate understanding: this is, after all, our website, and not yours. That’s not to say we’re not open-hearted: sure, we’d give you this website, if our psychic hadn’t assured us that you would just immediately burn it to the ground by trying to cook a frozen hot dog in the toaster.

Anyway, on with the show. Let the shrieking begin:

 

(consider each of the following games’ score four out of four stars)

#33. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTportal
the best game of 2007
a videogame by valve
published by valve
for the xbox 360, playstation 3, and PC

Bottom line: Portal is “the best game ever about points A and B”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#32. noby noby boy

a videogame by keita takahashi and friends
published by bandai-namco games
for the sony playstation 3 computer entertainment system

Bottom line: Noby Noby Boy is “delicious eye taffy”.


 

 

 

#31. canabalt

a videogame by semi secret software

play the full game for free at canabalt dot com

or purchase it via the iPhone / iPod Touch App Store for $2.99

Bottom line: Canabalt is “Super Mario Tetris”.

#30. tetris

a videogame by alexey pajitnov

published by probably every software company ever
for any device with a screen

Bottom line: Tetris is “psychology”.

#29. ??? (stay tuned!)

 

#28. ??? (stay tuned!)

 

#27. ??? (stay tuned!)

 

#26. ??? (stay tuned!)

#25. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTcastlevania: bloodlines (Vampire Killer (Japan)) (Vampire’s Kiss (Europe))
a videogame by konami
published by konami (et al)
released in 1994 for the sega mega drive / genesis
text by tim rogers
selected as #25 on the action button manifesto: a list of the 25 best games of all-time

Bottom line: Castlevania: Bloodlines is “the greatest stupid game ever”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#24. spartan: total warrior
a videogame by creative assembly
published by sega
released in 2004 for the playstation 2 computer entertainment system, microsoft xbox (not compatible with xbox 360), and nintendo gamecube
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Spartan: Total Warrior is “the sharpest game of all time, bar slitting your wrist with a DVD shard.”

#23. monster hunter portable 2nd G
a videogame by capcom japan
published by capcom
released in 2008 for the playstation portable video entertainment system
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G is “the son of Street Fighter II“.

#22. secret of evermore
a videogame by square los angeles
published by squaresoft (et al)
released in 1995 for the super nintendo entertainment system
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Secret of Evermore is “confident and modern”.

 

 

(previous review of secret of evermore, written by ario barzan)

#21. dragon quest v: hand of the heavenly bride

a videogame by enix / armor project
scenario by yuji horii
published by enix / square enix (et al)
released in 1992 for the super famicom, in 2004 for the sony playstation 2, and in 2008 for the nintendo DS
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Dragon Quest V is “the friendliest game ever”.

 

#20. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTbreath of fire v: dragon quarter
a videogame by capcom
published by capcom
released in 2002 for the sony playstation 2 computer entertainment system
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter is “the most elegant role-playing game ever made”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#19. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTthe lost vikings
a videogame by blizzard
published by interplay
released in 1992 for the sega genesis, sega CD super nintendo entertainment system, amiga, personal computers, and sony playstation computer entertainment system (as “norse by norsewest“)
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: The Lost Vikings is “the best viking game ever”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#18. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTmetroid prime
a videogame by retro studios
published by nintendo
released in 2002 for the nintendo gamecube
text by ario barzan

Bottom line: Metroid Prime is “so slick you might think it’s vanilla”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#17. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTwinning eleven 7
a videogame by konami
published by konami
released in 2003 for the sony playstation 2 computer entertainment system
text by thom moyles

Bottom line: Winning Eleven 7 is “the only game you’ll ever need to play, if you love soccer”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#16. HILARIOUS ALT TEXToutrun 2
a videogame by am2
published by sega
released in 2003 in the arcades and in 2004 for the microsoft xbox
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: OutRun 2 is “love: the videogame”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#15. hell yeahDOOM
a videogame by id software
published by activision
released in 1993 for personal computers, and in 1994-2007 for linux, sega 32X, sega saturn, atari jaguar, sony playstation, and xbox live arcade
text by andrew toups
with additional co-op text by tim rogers

Bottom line: DOOM is “a Vintage Ford Truck of a Videogame.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

#14. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTikaruga
a videogame by treasure
all game design, programming, scripting, 3D modeling and music composition by hiroshi iuchi
published by atari (et al)
released in 2001 in the arcades, released in 2002 the sega dreamcast and the nintendo gamecube, released in 2008 for xbox live arcade
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Ikaruga is “the alpha and the omega of 2D shooting”.

 

 

alternate #14: bangai-oh spirits

 

 

 

#13. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTpanzer dragoon zwei
a videogame by team andromeda
published by sega
released in 1996 for the sega saturn
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Panzer Dragoon Zwei is “morbidly delicious”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

#12. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTkatamari damacy
a videogame by namco
game design by keita takahashi
published by namco (et al)
released in 2004 for the sony playstation 2 computer entertainment system
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Katamari Damacy is “basically pop-art”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

#11. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTshadow of the colossus
a videogame by sony computer entertainment japan
published by sony computer entertainment japan
released in 2005 for the sony playstation 2 computer entertainment system
text by ario barzan

Bottom line: Shadow of the Colossus is “close to an air-thin miracle”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

HILARIOUS ALT TEXT#10.metal gear solid 3: snake eater
a videogame by hideo kojima and kojima productions
published by konami
text by ario barzan

Bottom line: Metal Gear Solid 3 is Metal Gear Solid: Grown Up“.

 

 

(alternate review by brandon parker)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#9. chrono trigger
a videogame by the dream team
published by squaresoft
for the nintendo super famicom (super nintendo entertainment system)
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Chrono Trigger is “hands-down the best ‘japanese RPG’ of all-time”.

 

 

alternate review by brendan lee: Chrono Trigger is “intimate”.

#8. HILARIOUS ALT TEXTcave story (doukutsu monogatari)
a videogame by studio pixel
released in 2004 for personal computers
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Cave Story is “better than art — it’s science”.

 

 


 

#7. fight brilliantly, for the futurestreet fighter iii: third strike
a videogame by capcom
published by capcom
released in the arcades in 1999
head-to-head review action:
Bottom line: Street Fighter III: Third Strike “had balls”. (by david cabrera)

 

VERSUS

 

Bottom line: Street Fighter III: Third Strike is “mind games”. (by heather campbell)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#6. KEEP ON TURNINgears of war
a videogame by epic games
published by microsoft
released in 2006 for the microsoft xbox 360
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Gears of War is “the game of the decade”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

#5. YEAHpac-man: championship edition
a videogame by tooru iwatani
published by namco
released in 2007 for the xbox 360 live arcade
price: 800 god damn micro$oft point$
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Pac-Man: Championship Edition is “actually a videogame”.

#4. mother 3
a videogame written by shigesato itoi
developed by brownie brown
published by nintendo
released in 2005 for the nintendo gameboy advance
text by tim rogers
(this review originally published in another format on insert credit dot com)

Bottom line: Mother 3 is “for better, worse, and everything in between, the closest games have yet come to literature”.

 

#3. HILARIOUS ALT TEXThalf-life 2
a videogame developed and published by valve
released in 2004 for personal computers, 2005 for the microsoft xbox, and 2007 for the microsoft xbox 360 and sony playstation 3 computer entertainment systems
text by theodore troops

Bottom line: Half-life 2 is “a miracle”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#2. super mario bros. 3
a videogame by nintendo
published by nintendo
for the nintendo famicom / entertainment system, super famicom / entertainment system, gameboy advance, and wii virtual console
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Super Mario Bros. 3 is “a lifelong obsession”.

 

. . . . . . AND ACTION BUTTON DOT NET (NASDAQ: ABDN)’S CHOICE FOR THE #1 GREATEST AND BEST GAME OF ALL-TIME IS . . . . . .

Okay j/k:

#1. ...
another world (aka “out of this world” (aka “outer world”))

a videogame by eric chahi
published by delphine software, interplay, et al
released in 1991 for the amiga, atari-ST, and MS-DOS; later released on the panasonic 3DO, Apple IIGS and Apple Macintosh personal computers, nintendo gameboy advance, mobile phones (symbian OS), sega mega drive (genesis), sega mega-CD (sega CD), super nintendo entertainment system (super famicom), and microsoft windows XP
text by tim rogers

Bottom line: Another World (Out of this World (Outer World)) is “the best videogame of all-time.”

Comments

406 Responses to THE ACTION BUTTON DOT NET MANIFESTO: A LIST OF THE THIRTY-THREE BEST GAMES OF ALL-TIME

  1. First. Stoked this is finally up…so much for my studying tonight.

  2. It’s just three reviews! We had your studying in mind when planning this!

    If it had been all twenty-five, that would just be cruel.

  3. Your articles aren’t exactly Reader’s Digest, though!

    Reviews on here, honestly, are the Pringles of gaming websites.

  4. AWESOME.

    By the way Tim, your Phantom Hourglass review (I just bought it) is dead on 100% fucking truth. I am almost ashamed to say I nearly skipped it because of the NeoGAF “official” thread.

  5. Thank god it’s only three, I wouldn’t have done anything today if it was 25

  6. Same here man. All twenty-five would have been both gorgeous and highly frightening.

    Three? That’s purely gorgeous.

  7. I’m tickled pink to see these three reviews. Thanks for writing them.

  8. I am going to play every game on this list where possible, and get the closest approximation where not (like Monster Hunter Freedom 2).

    Thanks for giving me something to do over my second year of university.

  9. Quick typo note: The Bloodlines thing on this page says “selected as #22 on the action button manifesto: a list of the 25 best games of all-time” while it’s actually 25.

    Actual comment: Looking forward to reading these. Can’t say much because I’m not at the reviews yet.

  10. I don’t know how deliberate it is, but the recurring references to spear-thrusting and God Hand is a wonderful touch.

    I agree with the position that God Hand deserves to be a personal favorite, but is maybe too flawed on a conceptual level to be put too high on a pedestal. I feel it’s the Street Fighter 1 to an eventual Street Fighter 2 or 3.

  11. Consider:
    - Will all reviews reference spears? Maybe this is really a top 25 list of “games with spears.”
    - Perhaps each group of three reviews will have similar connecting elements; that would be elegant. However, it would call the ordering into question.

  12. can you make a list of the top 25 punk bands that would represent, in both style and soul, each game presented on your 25 list?

    godDAMNit, i love lists.

  13. I, too, am taking great inward joy at the numerous backhand references to spears and God Hand. I’d think you were winding us up for something, if not just poking [read: thrusting] at some good fun.

  14. I cling to the top of Terranigma having a spot on the list (a game about a guy with a spear) even though Tim probably would hand it a single star.

  15. I suspect this is all leading up to the Action Button Dot Net exclusive world premiere on God Hand 2: Spear Hand.

  16. For all the well deserved criticism of rpg design here we have three titles in a row that subscribe to it, and I doubt they will be the last either. In their abstractness they are sometimes able to reach semblances of profound statements. As much as I despise their number cramming mannerisms, they end up being the games which interest me most. The future sometimes gives us bright visions of burning hope that maybe numbers are on the way out (See: Rise Of The Argonauts. Seriously, see it.) Until then we may have to be satisfied with pondering how many hit points a shot to the head is.

  17. Did you stack all the jRPGs at the rear because they are inherently less fun than other games? Good move.

  18. djomorris:

    Yes, though as you’ll see, these three games either use numbers cleverly, use them cutely, or just plain don’t need them. We can forgive them for having numbers because of the naive time in which they were born. And yes, Rise of the Argonauts, whether it’s going to be any good or not, is definitely a game surfing near the top of Action Button Dot Net’s To Be Watched list.

    dmauro:

    Uhm, yes. Something like that.

    Also, Dragon Quarter is an excellent placeholder for all strategy games, Dragon Quest V prevents us from needing a Final Fantasy, and Secret of Evermore nicely fills the point-and-click adventure quota.

    Not that we believe in quotas, anyway.

  19. I don’t know how deliberate it was, or if Tim is playing it up just to mess with us, but the themes and recurring references regarding numbers, spears, and Godhand have already elevated this whole list from A List, to an Orchestration. Yes, I will compare this to something like a composer building and arranging tracks of strings against horns and percussion for maximum effect, letting one hum to silence while another bursts into existence. Rather, more like arranging those tracks over a concept album than a forty minute composition.

    Anyway, this is wonderful reading, as a cohesive, singular piece of writing, which is what every other greatest games list is not.

    SPOILER: Final Fantasy 7 takes up every last spot in the top 19.

  20. i’m going to laugh so hard when godhand is not only not number 1, but isn’t on this list because it was replaced by sonic heroes.

  21. I am really enjoying reading your reviews and I agree completely with Gilberts comment.

    I posted a link on another forum that I frequent…

    … They still hate you. Did I miss something? What the hell did you do? I don’t understand. They make me sad.

  22. I figure Tim just wrote the list and thought, “hah, all these games have spears in them, odd”. For the spear references to be there other than by pure chance would mean that the games got on this list for a reason other than because they’re all completely amazing. Then again, maybe this is all a plot to waste our precious time.

  23. I doubt Tim arranged the list itself based on like, “Does it have spears, and can it be easily compared to Godhand? Are numbers a significant part of the interaction?”, but rather, capitalized on coincidental recurrences to give the whole thing some structure. Just like in fiction, a bad storyteller thinks theme first, then story, and a good storyteller thinks story, and then theme.

  24. Guys, I have an announcement (SPOILER):

    After all the listings have been listed, I’m naming this list NUMBER 1, on my twenty-nine most stylish lists of all-time. And that means, it’ll probably be high on my not-yet-determined numbered list of the best lists of all-time.

  25. haha it looks like kierkegaard is trying to snap some hits off this article:

    insomnia.ac

  26. “Is there even any point in me writing these articles anymore? Nothing ever changes!”

    Is this a sign that Alex is giving up?

    We can only hope.

  27. no kidding.

    i’ve tried being reasonable with the guy, but he just bans me from his forums every time.

  28. Just in case it’s not already 100% clear, I have a problem with the concept of the all-genre list — NOT with Tim’s reviews. Even when I think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I’d still rather read him than anyone else, and, hey, there are many times when he DOES know what he’s talking about, and then his stuff’s just awesome.

    I guess people misunderstand me because they read too quickly and too superficially. I’ll set the matter straight soon though.

  29. While he’s talking about point-missing, dear Alex misses it most of all.

  30. Why does the existence of drama among the game-reviewing community seem wholly expected?

  31. I agree with the basic point of Alex’s argument – the top 50/100 lists put out by virtually every mainstream publication is terrible beyond belief. They are poorly written, contain no benchmark for evaluation and comparison, virtually ignore pre-1995 PC and pre-NES console games, and contain the same fucking titles at the top each time (and lets face it, nobody cares if you threw in Adventure or whatever at #98). Its pretty much guaranteed the top 5 will contain Zelda, one of the Mario Bros., Tetris, and Super Metroid, for example.

    That said, this is not a standard mainstream “best games ever lol” list. All of these articles can stand alone on the website, it is not like most lists where they give the game, then a short paragraph about why they love it, then move on. So I can give Tim a pass on that alone.

    Another reason why is that this list is clearly not in line with most mainstream ones. I could not see 7 of the 9 games listed here on any IGN Top 100 list.

    So it’s okay. I agree with Alex’s point, but I’ll still read this one, enjoy it, and investigate what games I should play from it that I haven’t before.

  32. Tetris IS the best game ever made, though. If it doesn’t make it onto this list my belief in Tim will be shattered.

    That said, I always figured this was more of a “these are the games by which we judge others, these games are the result of when our ideal criteria are met” list rather than a “bestest, most feature-rich, most groundbreaking games of all time” list that other sites tend to make. Other lists are a soapbox, this one is a counter-arguement.

  33. “Other lists are a soapbox, this one is a counter-arguement.”

    No one really cares whether a sentence has meaning anymore. As long as it sounds catchy we are A-OK. This is why you people never manage to figure out.

  34. As long as I didn’t get around to actually writing anything, I’m kind of curious how the final product will have changed from the prototype.

  35. What I’ve, personally, discovered is that, and I am saying this to EVERYONE IN EQUAL PARTS and NO ONE IN PARTICULAR, is that…

    This manifesto/list makes a lot more sense — as do videogames in general — when you know about stroytelling in novels. Bestselling, American novels in particular. This list points you in the direction of videogames that feature equivalents of Stephen King-style capsule plots as gameplay.

    A fat man is cursed and subsequently loses weight every day; an author, suffering from writer’s block, goes off to live in a house where mysterious shit happens; a teenager buys a car that, unbeknownst to him, awakens at night and runs people over. Propose a problem, play out every implication that is of substance to the problem, and then let it end the way it has to end — with a surprise! Plant the seed, make it grow, let it die — in an explosion! That’s how Stephen King does it, how “Hollywood” does it, how Halo(‘s gameplay) does it. Mathematical problems are explored the same way; including the surprising, mind-blowing, life-changing, often times paradox solutions. Though let’s not start with mathematics — that’s exactly what videogames need to shake off (on their surface, not at their core) to become literature. (Sidenote: Literature always wanted to be videogames. Think about theatre/drama.) And hey, some people want that. It’s one of the possibilities to play out. What we’ve got right now, in terms of videogames, is like Ageplay with tacked on Sudoku. Or, well, something similar. Excuse my inaccuracies. Being general and accurate for every individual case isn’t flying, you know. (That, being kind of the point. Getting away from the accurately measured, towards the personally felt.)

    With what I am saying here not being mathematical at all, I also — kind of! — have to hope that you are getting the point, all by yourself. Or at least that you are getting some point out of it. Not that anyone is awarding anyone else with any points, mind you. That would be way beyond scope. Lacking the mathematical basis for that.

    -

    How can videogames feature capsule-plots, or plot at all? Just display text cards with Stephen King novels every few minutes — like in silent films! All right… How can videogame mechanics, how can gameplay — ah! — be plot? Read this manifesto and find out! Concentrate on the The Lost Vikings piece. Pay attention (at all times, ho ho ho) to the “thread of the sweater.” Think about the plot unraveling. Also, read the Bangai-O Spirits review for further/previous reference. Notice how that one is NOT so much fun to read (not compared to the Lost Vikings article, just compared to itself) because of the meticulous descriptions of gameplay mechanics. The most interesting to read review is the review in which no button functions are explained. Think of how that logic translates to Sci-Fi novels.

    This list gives you a lot to think about. Gives you something very, very close to the heart of the matter. Read it while keeping in mind the big picture (of videogames, of narrative, etc.) to get the most out of it. Read this shit like the Tao Te King; read with your left eye, look at your life with your right eye, and synchronize. That’s how you ‘get it’. And please, do read this comment that way too (EVERYONE!).

  36. People, don´t worry too much about Alex Kierkegaard. The guy just has an annoyingly narrow point of view, and he thinks that anything that doesn´t fit into his poor, simplistic and ridiculous misreadings of Wittgenstein´s philosophy is simply wrong. He is, in essence, a reactionary, hiding the fact that his opinions are shallow, vain and violate the minimal common sense. Just look at that text about ranking.

    The whole point is, in his words, that when someone ranks videogames he is only ranking his favorite genres. Then, he says that an all-genres ranking would be more reasonable. But, can you imagine a genre ranking list? Even the most retarded people of IGN or whatever know that it is pointless to make that list, because a reasonable ranking is only possible between concrete individuals which share a common ground, not between abstract realities as genres, which only exist in virtue of their logical opposition. It is nonsensical to make a ranking of abstract categories, you can only rank individuals which belong to a common category. That is because two games, even when they belong to different genres, have more in common between them than the abstract notions of two genres which, in fact, only exist in virtue of their logical opposition, lacking the necessary common ground to make a ranking. That is, abstract notions lack the concrete determinations to make a ranking of them, but individuals can always be compared. I dare Kierkegard to make his genre rank, it would look this ridiculous:

    INSOMNIAS MANIFESTO!

    #1 Platformers
    #2 RTS
    #3 JRPG´s, etc.

    Can you picture such atrocity? If the world where people compare concrete individuals is notably retarded (not because of the reasonable concept of a list, but because most individuals are retarded), imagine a world were people could be retarded enough to RANK genres. Congratulations, Alexs Kierkegaard, you have imagined a more retarded world than this! People have (very reasonably, I believe) only a vague notion of which genre do they prefer and which they not, but an specific ranking of this would be plainly nonsensical (dear reader, try to picture such a list and lol with me).

    In fact, the correct statement for an article in the reactionary and narrow insomnias vein (logical clarity, only clear statements, etc.) would have being asking people only to make ranks of games that coexist in the same genre for the sake of precision, that is, ranking individuals which belong to the same category. Reasonable, but not worth a website nor an article. But sometimes logical mistakes get too far. In fact, I feel ashamed to explain this things, everyone knows that there is no possible ranking of genres as genres and that´s the reason we don´t see a ranking like that, but this guy is so retarded that one must explain him this things (he in fact believes that the reason this kind of rankings do not exist is that everyone is a retard, LOL). He exposes shamefully his lack of common sense and calls everyone an imbecile when in fact the lamest imbecile can´t mistake a genre analysis with a game ranking (oh, the irony), or, in abstract terms, no one confuses a genre with an individual (thanks logic!).

    And for Kinto, don´t argue, for this intellectual eunuch the concept of metaphor doesn´t exist. The thing is that we all can see what metaphors and similes mean, and agree or not with them (yours was valid, I believe), but he is weirdly unable to do that. Ignore him, please, that´s the only way to stop this pseudo intellectual attention whore from disguising his resentment and utter incapacity as philosophy.

  37. Okay, fine, I suck at writing. I have, in fact, always sucked at writing, and have never felt motivated to improve it to the point where I could publish my works. I am simply not that kind of person.

    But you, sir, run a website. A website containing articles written by yourself, intended to be read by others. So what the hell is your excuse?

  38. did i ever mention how much i love this website and how it’s nice to see it stand tall around other gaming blogs?

    /cocksucking

  39. C’on. I wouldn’t say this is a gaming glob. Generally, “blog” is some place when you try to appear interesting to other people so that they make comments. Then you repay the favor and go to suck the other blogger cock… pretty much like an intellectual wannabe orgy.

  40. Excuse the spelling. I wrote “glob” instead of “blog” in the first line…

  41. I hate that word, blog. It’d be an awesome name for a Jabba the Hutt styled boss in a Nintendo game, though. Like King Blog. Or rather Glob the Terrible, and his loyal henchmen Blog and Vlog.

  42. also, wednesday is the 13th? and bangai-o not out till the 19th says bestbuy, WHAT?!?

  43. “I dare Kierkegard to make his genre rank, it would look this ridiculous:”

    It’s not MINE moron. I never said that I would make a genre ranking, or that I wanted to make one — learn to fucking read for fuck’s sake.

    I SAID IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE ONE IF YOU FIRST DEVISE APPROPRIATE CRITERIA.

    (And because I am sure you’ll need further clarification, seeing as you are dumb as a fucking rock:)

    If, for example, your no. 1 criterion is, say, complexity, then nothing can touch 4X games. If you rank above all games that do not require significant time commitment, then arcade games should be at the top of the list and 4X games at the bottom. Etc. etc.

    With a set of appropriate criteria, a list is POSSIBLE.

    Without them, all mixed-genre lists are retarded.

    Capish?

    (Better not answer this. I’d rather nurture the illusion that people understand what I am talking about.)

  44. arcade games require the least significant time commitment???

    maybe in your happy pretend universe!

    I’d seriously like you to prove that getting into whatever arcane, muddled King of Street Calibur XX is hot these days, you would need less time than you would to play the latest sonic game, for example.

  45. additionally, its not as if sites ever give any criteria for same-genre lists either, except that they are actually of the same genre.

  46. watching these comments reminds of watching the rest of the internet wildly tear tim apart at every opportunity

  47. i wonder where the enlightened sector that actually appreciates icycalm resides?

    i mean i would say “his forum” but i dont think that anyone can actually survive there.

  48. “arcade games require the least significant time commitment???”

    Yes, moron. Each go takes a few minutes, compared to the hours-plus of other genres.

    “additionally, its not as if sites ever give any criteria for same-genre lists either, except that they are actually of the same genre.”

    They do. That’s what their reviews elaborate on (at least in genres in which the reviewer is proficient). It’s not difficult anyway, since the criteria of judging same-genre games are usually well-established and well-understood.

    But yeah, I am sure you’ll come up with some more retarded questions — it never ends with people like you — which is one of the reasons why I banned you. I just don’t have the time for this kind of shit anymore.

  49. “Yes, moron. Each go takes a few minutes, compared to the hours-plus of other genres.”

    Well if you want to have any fun, and actually learn how to play the game, it takes quite a bit longer. This is the reason that arcade games have become relatively unpopular: the average person plows through metal slug or the single-player mode of some fighter just as they have been conditioned to by mario or zelda or whatever, and then goes “that’s it?” If they took the time to learn how the scoring system works, or the fighting system, or whatever, they would have put in a far greater amount of time.

    I’ve played soul calibur 4 for about 4 hours so far and haven’t put a dent in it. Most shooters would be nearly finished by that point, with the bulk of the experience largely ingested. Additionally the “hours-plus of other genres?” What? Even going by average gameplay session length, I can finish a game of Dawn of War in 10 minutes, a few races of burnout in the same span, or a full “round” of warioware in less than 5 seconds.

    “I just don’t have the time for this kind of shit anymore.”

    Apparently!

  50. “Well if you want to have any fun, and actually learn how to play the game, it takes quite a bit longer.”

    No retard, trust me, that’s how long a single go takes on average, regardless of your intentions.

  51. Icycalm banned me from his forum the instant I dared to politely disagree with one of his reviews. I wouldn’t concern myself about him too much.

    It’s been Wednesday all over the US for quite some time now Tim (not sure about Japan)! Hurry up with the next round o’ pages!

  52. same here invisible. well, almost the same. i made a joke.

    anyway, im done.

  53. “anyway, im done.”

    You were done before you even started. All these posts of yours in this thread (and all the others in my forum) and not a SINGLE point worth reading!

    That’s why most people should treat the internet like a magazine. If you know fuck-all it’s best to just READ for christsake. That way YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING ONE DAY, YOUNG MAN! And then you won’t be so much of a retard anymore.

  54. icycalm: If its wrong to rank a game against others in defferent genres, how can you judge its ability to merge across different genres? Using your proposed model only generic genre-fitting games can viably be evaluated.

    To clarify my point. If a studio were to create a highly progressive work, that transended multiple genres and conventions, where could you give it credit? Your notion is clearly flawed.

    Its not retarded to judge works that Tim and his collueges consider the pinnicle of the medium.

    I can crush your theory in another way.

    Hypotheticaly if each genre had equal weighting and the reviewer was able to award infinate number of points to a title.

    For example Final Fantasy 7=654pts, Metal Gear Solid=574pts, Metroid Prime=300pts.

    And then to split them into respective genres.

    Final fantasy would still be the top ranked game due to the highest point number. Gerne?

  55. It bothers me a little bit that it says “We’ll be back on Wednesday, August 12th with the next three entries on the list.” Well, in 2009, the 12th of August will be a Wednesday, this year though… :(

    Nawwww, they wouldn’t, would they? Wednesday (the 13th) is almost over in the middle of Europe! Hurry up peoples!

  56. When I was little the kids in my neighborhood and I used to play at being paleontologists and dig up each other’s yards looking for dinosaur bones. There was this one kid in the neighborhood who would stand to the side and say, “You guys are so stupid. These things you’re digging up… They’re not real dinosaur bones!”

    “Well, sure they are, kid! Look at this one! I think it came from a pterodactyl!”

    “That’s just a rock! You guys are so stupid!”

    “This might not seem at first a very important subject, but as I will endeavor to show it sure as hell is. Because these lists are not merely an insult to the intelligence of a publication’s readers (though they certainly are that too), but above all amount to an involuntary admission on the part of their authors that they have not the faintest idea of how games work. “Look at us, we are ignorant!”, is what they are basically saying, and while they profess to construct these lists so as to promote knowledge of what constitutes excellence in videogames, what they in fact achieve, as we shall see, is the exact opposite.”

    We’re having a laugh, man. A bit of fun. Out of respect for your intelligence I’ll allow that you may be a real paleontologist shouting derision at a bunch of kids digging in the dirt, but even then, don’t you have something better to do? This is playtime, now. Go play.

    Loving the list, guys. Lost Vikings! Killer.

  57. “watching these comments reminds of watching the rest of the internet wildly tear tim apart at every opportunity”:

    Except that most of the people criticizing Kierkegaard have actually read the articles in question and have legitimate objections to his narcissistically bat-shit viewpoints. Rather than, you know, “LOL WEEABOO OTAKU JAPAN.”

    “I hate that word, blog.”:

    Any particular reason?

  58. The word just sounds ugly, like something a monster would scream in an EC comic book.

  59. alex, I have learned a lot from you, so I must thank you for that. however, I have noticed a few points that I think you ought to learn from, in the meantime.

    I find it ironic when you say that I, and others, ought to “learn something” from others (presumably you) who know more. You refuse to learn from many, many people. You will probably say that this is because you refuse to learn from “morons,” such an objection would be groundless, for the following reason.

    When people raise objections, you often argue ancillary minutiae and then end the argument prematurely. Similarly, your articles often focus on bizarre, remote logical footwork to prove trifling points (the fake-hd era, leave ranking to the experts, etc), which invite speculation. When anyone has something to say, it seems like you take the quickest, easiest route to finding any sort of logical inconsistency and then proceed to dismiss them.

    I haven’t yet spoken against your character, and I won’t. I just wish that, for your sake, you would try to not to consider every attack on your WORK a personal insult, and would, additionally, admit that you may make mistakes, in just the same way as you suggested others do in your New Games Journalism piece. It would help diminish the boundless arrogance that causes frustration for so many people.

  60. What? You guys don’t think that (all of) this stuff is a joke, do you?

  61. icycalm:

    You would have a point if game reviews were quantitative. Unfortunately, since it really just boils down to the action button staff’s opinion, your criticism just falls flat.

    Games come down to being more than just the basic mechanics that define a genre (let alone games that don’t fit square into a genre; is Deus Ex an FPS or RPG? etc). If you are going to read into the list and think that it implies whatever genre the #1 game is the greatest, you seem to be missing the entire point.

    tl;dr individual games and genres are two different concepts

  62. “What? You guys don’t think that (all of) this stuff is a joke, do you?”

    Just because it’s play doesn’t mean it’s a joke, any more than the kid who found the pterodactyl bone is making a joke.

    Or to put it another way, they are as deathly serious as that kid is deathly serious about that rock being a pterodactyl bone. This kind of seriousness is much more fruitful than Alex’s purple-robed, grim-faced seriousness, at least in the realm of art, something you’d think a guy who claims to have read so much Nietzsche would understand.

  63. What a bunch of fucking retards you guys are. What a worthless bunch of non-comments these are. Here are the pearls of wisdom this “thread” has had to offer so far:

    “individual games and genres are two different concepts” — courtesy of Necroyeti the moron

    “Just because it’s play doesn’t mean it’s a joke, any more than the kid who found the pterodactyl bone is making a joke.” — courtesy of CubaLibre the imbecile

    “This is playtime, now. Go play.” — courtesy of kitroebuck the fucktard

    “blah blah blah” — courtesy of somes the dimwit

    I wonder what Tim gets out of allowing you to flood his website with your fucking asinine non-comments. My guess is he just likes to have his fun with his “photosynthetic apes” from time to time. I used to be like that too, before I got banned from everywhere. Good times.

    Oh, and by the way, Tim, you should really consider dropping the comments system in favor of the forum. Forums are more fun, not to mention that threads can be bumped forever, whereas comments discussions die out quite quickly since readers can’t be expected to keep checking every single fucking review just in case someone has posted something. Just make it work like on LPN, and as long as you keep the reviews coming eventually a decent-sized community of photosynthetic apes will be established. Perhaps there’ll even be a couple of real human beings in there, like JF81 for example.

  64. And I will leave you, dear photosyntheric apes, with a Baudrillardian passage which perfectly encapsulates the essence of this discussion (emphasis is mine):

    “The compulsion to operationalism gives rise to an operational paradox. It is not just that the order of the day is ‘making something worth something’: the fact is that it is better, if something is to be invested with value, FOR IT TO HAVE NO VALUE TO BEGIN WITH; better to know nothing in order to have things known; better to produce nothing in order to have things produced; AND BETER TO HAVE NOTHING TO SAY IF ONE SEEKS TO COMMUNICATE. All of which is part of the logic of things: as everyone knows, if you want to make people laugh, it is better not to be funny. The implications for communication and information networks are incontestable: in order for content to be conveyed as well and as quickly as possible, that content should come as close as possible to transparency and insignificance.”

  65. Whoa, I´m impressed how narcissistic is icycalm: the only reason he considers JF81 a “real human being” is because he agreed with his point (nothing against JF81 by saying this). I really LOL at how batshit insane he is. Kierkegaard, just face it: you have no real ideas beyond resentment expressed trough the poorest “logical” objections (which constantly defy logic and even common sense, and always manage to attain incredible amounts of fail), you have no literary talent, unlike many people in this website (someone who is so vulgar to actually fill his rants with insults against the reader if he has the slightly objection has no talent at all). The Baudrillard quote demonstrates that your only point is: “people invest contemporary nonsense with a false value expressed mainly by more nonsense”. Please, that´s not even an idea, just a valid point with no positive content which you take to intolerable extremes. Baudrillard and people like you are, sadly, the proof of the secondary and reactionary nature of the french spirit (they become more civilized when they learn a little from the anglosaxon world, like Baudelaire with Poe or Voltaire with England, and by the way I´m not anglosaxon, and I don´t care if you are french or not). I LOL a fucking lot when I read that you consider Baudrillard the best philosopher of the 20th century. Please, even in France they had better philosophers (even heard about a fucking genious called Gilles Deleuze?), not to name any german or to mention Wittgenstein (he is a philosopher, not merely a logician, fuck you). Next time do something constructive, and don´t try to fill with retarded arrogance your lack of genius, common sense and ideas. Even videogames, that matter you despise, deserve better.

  66. And for Tim, I don´t care if this is hyperbolical, but I want to say it: you sir, have created the taste of a matter, even if that matter is called videogames, and that´s the supreme mission of a critic.

    People, substitute “murder” with “videogames” and “Williams” with “Rogers” in this paragraph (and please take the word art in the mere sense of crafting something with excellence, despite its depth) to grasp my vision of this site:

    “People begin to see that something more goes to the composition of a fine murder than two blockheads to kill and to be killed, a knife, a purse and a dark lane. Design gentlemen, grouping, light and shade, poetry, sentiment, now are indispensable to attempts of this nature. Mr Williams has exalted the ideal of murder to all of us, and to me, therefore in particular, has deepened the ardousness of my task (…) He has in a manner created the taste by which this art is to be enjoyed. To sketch the history of the art and to examine his principles critically, now remains a duty for the connoisseur, and for judges of quite another stamp from his Majesties judges of Assize”. (De Quincey, On murder considered as one of the fine arts)

  67. Congratulations, icycalm, at completely ignoring any point one raises with your arguments and resorting to personal insults. Truly, you are a master of debate.

  68. Someone should lock icy in a cage for the good of science. He needs to be studied. Just give him a mame cab (although mame probably sucks becuase it wasn’t EXQUISETLY CRAFTED IN JAPAN FOR THE FINE DISCERNING TASTES OF THE SALARYMAN) and a penis ring.

  69. hey guys

    can we try talking about the games on the list, or obsessing about the order of the games on the list, or talking about something else like that?

  70. I’m enjoying the list a lot, Tim, and of course the others who have contributed. I’ve only ever played two of the games posted so far, and neither to completion. Some of the entries are games I’ve wanted to play for a while, and a few I have never devoted any mental energy at all towards, but am now interested in. You write in such a way that every time you write about yourself playing a multi-player game with somebody else like in your Bangai-O Spirits and Monster Hunter 2 Second G reviews I always want to be there playing it with you.

    As a long time reader of your articles, I’m always waiting for the next one, so a few questions have been lingering with me. Will there be a Fukubukuro 2007? Is this the equivalent multi-part massive write-up of the year? Will I ever get around to finishing the Most Gorgeous Situation in Korea and will I ever write that book report for you or send you the two dollars?

    I have partied with a few Korean exchange students lately. Whenever I hang out with any of them I make sure to ask them if I ever find myself in a gorgeous situation in Korea if they will be there to lend me a hand.

  71. tiiiiiiiiim I am talking about the games in the individual review pages! A little bit anyway

  72. I have been pretty inspired by this to try out monster hunter. looks like great fun!

    Also, BANGAI-O SPIRITS DOES NOT EXIST!

    Seriously, type any zip code into gamestop.com’s bangai-o spirits page and it will tell you that the game doesn’t exist within one hundred miles of the specified region.

    (ps tim when are you going to post my godhand review??)

  73. “can we try talking about the games on the list, or obsessing about the order of the games on the list, or talking about something else like that?”

    Well, I was actually the only person to say something worthwhile about the order of the games on the list, even if I didn’t exactly do it in this thread, for obvious reasons.

    And in fact what I said about the order of the games on the list is the ONLY thing someone can say about the order of the games on the list without saying something REALLY DUMB.

    But I guess all this is way too complicated as far as the internet is concerned. Story of my (internet) life.

  74. “When two masters play it, there are games within the game, an analogue to the circling and waiting that is commonly associated with Two Guys Who Know a Lot About Fighting.” – Winning Eleven Review

    So I have to wonder, we are in to number 14 on this list, will there be a true fighter? Or is Winning Eleven the apex of the fighter ideal executed in a non-traditional way. In the same way that action button considers Gears of War the direct descendant of Mario. As icycalm pointed out on insomnia this site doesn’t have an excellent record for review of fighting games, however, the reviewer of arcana heart has since apologized… also he was not named Tim Rogers. If there is one, I’d put money on something classic and 2D sprite-based.

  75. “hey guys

    can we try talking about the games on the list, or obsessing about the order of the games on the list, or talking about something else like that?”

    Dude you did NOT just put Ikaruga above Doom. OMGOGMGOMGOMGGOMGMO.

    Is that the kind of thing you were looking for

  76. This list is starting to show some momentum. It starts out with pure games (straight action titles, some RPGs), branches into titles that twist their respective genres in specific directions (Dragon Quarter, Lost Vikings, Prime), then gives us games that understand the weight of their mechanics on an elegant, almost visceral level (Winning Eleven, Outrun 2, Doom, Ikaruga), and now we’ve got games that sort of transcend the idea of genre, or else get at the heart of what made these genres and extrapolate that in into something new (Zwei, Katamari, SotC). I mean, there’s some overlap here, but I think I can see the pattern.

  77. I take back complaining about fighting games. Yesterday my cousin was over and complained she had no games to play on her PS2. I handed her SOTC and Katamari (and Okami). You still need a PC strategy game though. May I suggest Civ 2….

  78. Strategy games are tricky!

    Fact: Dune 2 was originally considered for this list, though eventually I plucked it out.

    I love Civilization II a lot, though I can’t think of anything really important to say about it.

    Also, there is something of a point to these reviews. I guess that won’t be apparent until all is said and done.

    You’ll see!

  79. All the best one’s are the sequel no? Civ 2, Dune 2, Europa Universalis 2…
    Actually I have always been a massive civilization fan and the real best one that I would put on my list: Alpha Centauri. It is Civ 2 honed and refined with a ton of strange game play (for civ any) designs added in. Civ 3 just turned into a 3D feature filled mess, but Alpha Centauri was rather endearing. Unfortunately its faults are a little to many… spamming useless ocean cities, the end game turns into a an environmental mess if you power play*, and the micromanagement still isnt solved. Actually I guess you could say that none of the Civ games have been the perfect Civ game. And the way thing are going there probably never will be.

    * I guess you could say the environmental problems of a ballooning population are a commentary on the effect of humans on planetary system and ‘the planet’ is much smaller then Earth technically

  80. “I love Civilization II a lot, though I can’t think of anything really important to say about it.”

    Can’t think of anything important to say about the most important game ever, whereas you CAN about random 3D action games (KD, SOTC, etc)

    Oh my…

  81. He didn’t write the SotC review OH CAUGHT IN YOUR OWN WEB OF LIES WHOOAOAOOAAOOAAA

    icy tell me why civ 2 is the most important game ever

    I mean I’m pretty sure you don’t believe that but you might.

  82. For the record I only ever played Civ III which I guess is sort of the dark horse of the series. I sat down and played it for something like nine consecutive hours and never touched it again. Maybe out of sheer terror.

  83. “icy tell me why civ 2 is the most important game ever”

    First off, Civ 2 is not the most important game ever — Civ is. Civ 2, or 3, or 4, are merely revisions of the original game, and therefore not really worth reviewing at great length. (All you need to do for revisions is list the changes and discuss their effect. Discussing the IMPACT of the game has to be done in the review of the original version. If you don’t understand this you need to read this: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/sequel_the_videogame/)

    As to why Civ is the most important game ever, the reason is that it is the most complex game yet, and therefore also the most interesting. If you don’t understand the “therefore” you need to read this: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/mini-games_are_for_morons/

    And since I am replying to you, might as well set something straight:

    “and now we’ve got games that sort of transcend the idea of genre, or else get at the heart of what made these genres and extrapolate that in into something new (Zwei, Katamari, SotC).”

    How on earth are these random 3D action games supposed to be “transcending” the idea of genre? Katamari, for example, is about as simple a 3D action game as you can get, only with a new gimmick (rolling over stuff). And I say “gimmick” in a good sense, in just exactly the same sense as in shooters or fighters, for example.

    Games do not transcend genres. The concept “genre transcendence” in games is bogus, because genre in games is defined according to mechanics, whereas in films/novels/etc. according to theme. When a game then “transcends” its genre, it doesn’t really transcend it — it merely creates a new one. That’s how mechanics work. And that’s why the games you mentioned have not spawned a host of imitators — because they didn’t transcend anything, and therefore there was nothing to imitate.

    So that’s it for today class. Study the relevant links, do your homework, and Videogames 101 will continue tomorrow at the same time.

  84. “Can’t think of anything important to say about the most important game ever, whereas you CAN about random 3D action games (KD, SOTC, etc)”

    Before our lord God Civ can not speak, but merely quake before its glory.

    Here I’ll review Civ 2: “There is no greater satisfaction then winning your first game on Emporer level. Diety level is very gay. Funnily enough the patch that fixes the diplomacy… destroys the diplomacy. 4/4 stars”

    There should be a patch that lets you set all 6 other civs as the mongols.

  85. I’m so relieved you put Psychonauts at #26. I can only hope that first place will be my favorite game, Sid Meier’s Final Symphony of the God of Twilight Princess Shock Grand Theft Kart 2 Turbo.

    I must protest though that the Bloodlines review made me want to play Altered Beast instead of Castlevania. Go figure…

  86. so i couldn’t help but notice that the image for winning eleven 7 is actually of winning eleven 8.

  87. icycalm, your article about complexity basically states that games need to have something to “keep our brains working,” in order to be interesting.

    well, don’t the strange designs of shadow of the colossus keep our brains working with wonder, even if the mechanics are not particularly intriguing (not that they aren’t)?

  88. “Games do not transcend genres. The concept “genre transcendence” in games is bogus, because genre in games is defined according to mechanics, whereas in films/novels/etc. according to theme. When a game then “transcends” its genre, it doesn’t really transcend it — it merely creates a new one. That’s how mechanics work.”

    transcend: to go beyond the limits of?

    different mechanics aren’t as different as different ideas?

  89. ray: i believe you are the first user to point this out!

    you will receive a prize in the mail.*

    *said prize does not, in fact, exist. :(

  90. I once entered a joke entry into a contest where the prize would’ve been an unpaid job as an assistant on the set of a video for the band Hinder (they’re like a Nickelback clone).

    It was called “The Hinder Break Into Hollywood Contest!”

    Because unpaid assistant to a bunch of faux-post-grunge not-quite-one-hit-wonder douchebags is like the final step before “Blowjob and Ferrari Class Professional Feature Film Hollywood Director”.

    My point is, you should bring ray in as an unpaid assistant. You can throw coffee at him and make him buy your blow for you, and tell him it’s a prize.

  91. Whooo, icy gave me a mostly real, only slightly condescending response! I take this to mean I’m better than the rest of you. Did you all know that icy even liked me for a time?

    Anyway, I’m going to go ahead and say I’m generally not a fan of what we currently use as genres in video games. “Action” “RPG” “adventure” “strategy” etc are pretty vague and don’t really tell us a lot. Hell, “shooter” is itself a subsection of “action” and yet is broken down into different things like “2d arcade scrolling shooter” (which has about 4 sub genres of its own!) and “FPS” (which is an entirely idiotic genre that goes from Doom to Half Life to System Shock to Counter Strike). That’s a whole bunch of shit right there. And if a game that transcends its genre simply invents a new one, then we’re just fucked. Lets not turn this into music here.

    I mean I think these genres are limited. From where I stand, Street Fighter 2 is in the same genre as Quake. Katamarii is in the same genre as Panzer Dragoon Zwei. Strider is with Call of Duty. FFVI is with Metal Gear Solid. I’ve gone into this before. Not really feeling a desire to attempt to lay out an entire groundwork for genre classification though, so we’re just going to leave it be for now. Sorry.

    Saying a sequel can only be reviewed as a revision or extension of the original game is a bit limited. Sometimes the original game is the important title and the sequel is just a mission pack. These sequels suck. Sometimes the sequel is the important game, like Panzer Dragoon Zwei, or Street Fighter 2. Sometimes the sequel is a different game entirely, merely picking up the basic ideas of the original and moving in a new direction, like Zelda 2 or Metroid Prime. Sometimes the sequel is a response to the original, like Metal Gear Solid 2.

    In some genres (ho ho!) what you say is a little more valid. Street Fighter 2 Turbo is completely indebted to SF2, offering only tweaks and balances. As a result, it is abjectly superior as a game, but completely bankrupt as a work. But then again, it’s less of a sequel and more of a revision; a patch, basically. Since the intricacies of the way these characters move and fight–the direct responses they offer to every button combination the player enters–are kind of the point of the entire game, it’s ok. These revisions become necessary to perfect the concept. The same could be said of some brands of shooters other small, visceral, arcadey titles. As this is you…uhh, specialty, I suppose, I could see how you view the concept of a sequel in this light. But it is not universal.

  92. “But it is not universal.”

    It is universal. Because when I say “original” title I do NOT mean “the one without a number in the title”. I mean the ORIGINAL one. So Street Fighter 2 is the original title, for example. Dune 2 is also the original title. But Civilization 2 is not.

    You basically ignore the numbers (numbers are just a marketing device anyway) and use your head for each particular case. And you only review at length the ORIGINAL games.

    That’s why all those people here saying Civ 2 is great and should be on the list are clowns. The original Civilization should be on the list. Etc. etc.

    Well, actually nothing should be on the list, because it shouldn’t exist in the first place, but we’ve already been over that.

  93. “Not really feeling a desire to attempt to lay out an entire groundwork for genre classification though, so we’re just going to leave it be for now. Sorry.”

    Nothing to be sorry about. We both know you are just posturing and are in no position to lay the groundworks for anything. I am the only one “laying groundworks” around these parts.

  94. If I am “not laying groundworks” than you are most certainly not NOT posturing. You could drop about six levels of brinksmanship from your posting habits and attempt to come off as a human being actually interested in what he is discussing, but we both know you’re too insecure to abandon your virtual high ground for that.

    Saying there is no way Civ 2 should be on the list over Civ is to say that the list ought to be one of important games. That’s one way of going about it. But it isn’t the only way. I’d have Street Fighter 2 Turbo on my list over SF2 because there is no reason for me to play the original in the year of our lord two thousand and eight.

    Your bit about ignoring numbers to find the “true” original can be valid, but of the titles I list it only eliminates Street Fighter. To say there is no reason to discuss Zelda 2 or Metroid Prime or Metal Gear Solid 2 or Half Life 2 or Mario 3 is a little absurd. But then again, so is your approach to video games in the first place. You are very, very mechanical. Even then, your approach is slightly odd. In a mechanical nature, one could craft an insightful review on, say, the intricacies of Metal Slug 3 that make it superior to–or at least as valid as!–the original. Enemy placement, boss encounter designs, personality, etc. These are pretty important! If they weren’t, even the original Metal Slug isn’t worth talking about when you can just talk about Contra.

    Basically, the gist is there is no gist. Things must be taken on a case by case basis. It is the “job” of the reviewer–or even just the player–to discern on what level a given title can appropriately be engaged, and then discuss it in a manner from which he can provide insight. You are not a slave to these titles. Free yourself up, icy. Loosen the collar a bit.

  95. “Saying there is no way Civ 2 should be on the list over Civ is to say that the list ought to be one of important games. That’s one way of going about it. But it isn’t the only way. I’d have Street Fighter 2 Turbo on my list over SF2 because there is no reason for me to play the original in the year of our lord two thousand and eight.”

    Seconded.

    Sorry Icy, but there are plenty of reasons to continue to play Civ 2 over Civ 3 and Civ 4. There is no reason to play Civ 1 over Civ 2. The list is not about the ‘importance’ of video games, but a manifesto of their ‘awesomeness’. We want developers to make games that are awesome, not important. Every time I hear a developer get hot all over themselves about how important they think their game is going to be, I die a little inside (Spore? Fable? Bioshock?) Much like with music journalism: if you set out to make to make a history of importance the only supporting facts you have are record sales. So maybe you decide that you’ll do a history of what you think is important and fuck the sales man. Well you’ll run into trouble there too. Treasure is fantastic, they should be important… they are not. Is treasure in anyway important to the xbox 360 player who fav games are Halo, Gears, and Half-Life. To the Kotaku mouth-breather. To anyone who plays the wii regularily. Treasure does not effect them, you could make a better argument maybe that Treasure is important to the game geeks who hang out on these websites, but they are still niche. Make a list that is awesome. Fuck importance.

    If i was using the list to tell a developer about what kinds of games he should look at before going off and designing a game I wouldn’t wave Civ 1 in his face if I had a copy of Civ 2. “Civ 1 game invented the x4 genre, but fuck that game man. Civ 2 perfected it, it is awesome.”

    Here is my personal icy-inspired genre list btw:
    1. mahjong clones
    2. ‘stupid 3D action games’
    3. arcana heart- er…um fighters
    3. brawlers
    4. x16 games
    5. old shooter games i read about on insomnia.ac
    6. Square-Enix
    7. wRPG’s
    8. games ‘where you can like rewind your mistakes’

    In the interest of good times I feel I should tell you: go eat your own dick.

    Seriously though, Tim has been sketchy on the details about what this lists goal is. I don’t know what really ties these games together as one cohesive list. I hear tell that all will be revealed at the ‘end’.

  96. The Manifesto seems to be putting forth the philosophy of creating games as games, as sensibly designed challenges built on pleasing mechanics. Mechanics so pleasing, you could basically do anything you want (within reason) with the level design and still turn out a good game. Also, games where the story drives the game, rather than games where the game is an afterthought. For a long time, games haven’t been about good game design by any stretch of the imagination.

    Knowing the top game on the list, and knowing a few that have been celebrated on this site or elsewhere by Tim and company, but that are not on the list, I’m actually pretty sure it’s something like this. Good, solid, no bullshit game design. Sensible, not-stupid challenges, story that doesn’t get all convoluted and suck its own dick, etc. A basic idea of neither jerking the player off or shitting in their cereal, but loving them as one adult loves another adult.

    At least that’s the general idea I get.

  97. “For a long time”… well, not that game design was ever a bed of roses pumping out nothing but Super Marios 3 quality hits, and not to jump on the bandwagon, but you do kind of have pre-FF7 and post-FF7. Shit games were always plentiful, but they used to look like shit, too, and I like my shit to look like shit.

  98. this is a list of video-games that are good. that we like. that are better than other games. and the reviews talk about the reasons why.

    i’m surprised that it’s making people so angry.

    look at it. it’s that simple. it’s nothing to be upset about.

  99. “Saying there is no way Civ 2 should be on the list over Civ is to say that the list ought to be one of important games.”

    Do I absolutely HAVE to explain EVERY LITTLE THING in excruciating detail? Can’t you get anything by yourself?

    The list is TIED TO ACTUAL REVIEWS. It’s not just a list. If it was just a list then, yeah, Civ 2 maybe should be on the list (though not on mine — I prefer 4).

    But then you wouldn’t be able to write the long, detailed review for it that Tim wants to write for all the games in the list. You would have to review Civ 2 as if you were reviewing Civ 1 — as if Civ 1 basically hadn’t existed — because THAT’S WHERE THE IMPORTANT THINGS HAPPENED. Nothing important happened in Civ 2. The changes are so minor it’s like Civ Ver 1.135364. The only things you can write in a Civ 2 review are a list of the changes and an evaluation of their effect. And that’s the kind of review Tim will never bother to write. He just doesn’t have the attention span for it.

    So yes. If he wanted a SF2 game on that list it would have to be the first one.

    “To say there is no reason to discuss Zelda 2 or Metroid Prime or Metal Gear Solid 2 or Half Life 2 or Mario 3 is a little absurd.”

    It’s a good thing then that NO ONE SAID THAT. What I did say, Mr. “I have the attention span of a gnat” is that you should consider each game on an individual basis. And I never mentioned what I would do in each of the cases you mentioned.

    “If I am “not laying groundworks” than you are most certainly not NOT posturing.”

    I have gained the RIGHT to posture on occasion, because I have been laying solid groundworks for three years now. Everyone else on this thread bar Tim is just some fuck on the internet who’s never written three lines worth reading and never will. All their “groundworks” are ridiculous little assertions (see your comment re: Strider and Counterstrike belonging to the same genre) or ill-thought comments which are read by ten people before being buried under a mountain of nonsense and lost for all eternity.

    “Sorry Icy, but there are plenty of reasons to continue to play Civ 2 over Civ 3 and Civ 4.”

    Is there some gross obviousness contest going on that I haven’t heard about?

    “this is a list of video-games that are good. that we like. that are better than other games. and the reviews talk about the reasons why.”

    Look at the title of this blog post, darling.

    “i’m surprised that it’s making people so angry.”

    What are you, psychic? Or perhaps there’s not enough smilies in this thread for your sensitive tastes? Here, have some:

    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

  100. I understand what you are saying, Icy, but I don’t buy any of the arguments for doing a retrospective of the original every time you want to review a “revision”.

    “You basically ignore the numbers (numbers are just a marketing device anyway) and use your head for each particular case. And you only review at length the ORIGINAL games.”

    “First off, Civ 2 is not the most important game ever — Civ is. Civ 2, or 3, or 4, are merely revisions of the original game, and therefore not really worth reviewing at great length. (All you need to do for revisions is list the changes and discuss their effect. Discussing the IMPACT of the game has to be done in the review of the original version. If you don’t understand this you need to read this: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/sequel_the_videogame/)”

    “You would have to review Civ 2 as if you were reviewing Civ 1 — as if Civ 1 basically hadn’t existed — because THAT’S WHERE THE IMPORTANT THINGS HAPPENED. Nothing important happened in Civ 2″

    How do you decide that Civ 2 is an incremental update? Using your head? Who says Street Fighter II was the original? Just because it was popular? Maybe it’s Fatal Fury. It really all comes down to individual opinions then. How would your system work for MegaMan. Yikes… Actually, I don’t really want to think about how it would apply to Capcom anymore.

    In my opinion nothing important happened in Castlevania Bloodlines. In Bloodlines they added:

    new Pikemen unit
    tightened up the graphics
    quirky megadrive soundtrack

    To review Bloodlines I guess we really need to be reviewing Castlevania. And, HEY why isn’t Haunted Castle on the list? Maybe #2.

  101. “How do you decide that Civ 2 is an incremental update? Using your head? Who says Street Fighter II was the original? Just because it was popular? Maybe it’s Fatal Fury. It really all comes down to individual opinions then.”

    OF COURSE it does! It ALWAYS comes down to individual opinions! If someone thinks that Civ 2 was the original game, and NOT Civ, then they can go ahead and review that one at length. A stupid opinion is still an opinion.

  102. “To review Bloodlines I guess we really need to be reviewing Castlevania. And, HEY why isn’t Haunted Castle on the list? Maybe #2.”

    NOW we are getting somewhere… (I say ‘we’ out of politeness.)

  103. ActionButtonDotNet, this list is a monument, and I applaud you for erecting it.

    Really, I like how the reviews bounce back to each other’s, it feels tight, it feels connected and as much as I would normally have disliked such ideas of making lists of things this has heft and almost a narrative feel to it.

    It makes me want to go to the nearest newstand and throw all games’ magazines in the trash.

    As for the resident debate about categories here in the comment section, let me just say it’s anathema to what ABDN is doing right.

  104. ABDN definitely makes me not want to ever buy another video game magazine, not that I’ve even looked at one for more than a couple minutes in… geez, like ten years. Besides a halfway decent article here and there, or maybe a game demo disk, games magazines are basically garbage. Not even in terms of quality, I mean they’re literally trash, something you should throw away.

  105. Yeah, dude. Have you picked up a recent issue of EGM lately? The ink literally rubs off in your hands. ABDN’s ink rubs off into your soul, though, doesn’t it?

  106. …which is WORSE!

    Juuuust kidding.

    ABDN definitely resonates. Not only is it thought provoking, but if you ask me to quote a magazine I’ve read, I couldn’t do it. “I could count the number of (FILL IN THE BLANK)s on my penis” is something I’ll be saying for the rest of my life, though.

  107. Do you guys in the US get EDGE magazine?, i always liked that one.

  108. ImagineFX and 3D World are also pretty cool. But thats more for content creation and concept art. In Germany theres a magazine called game/ dev also pretty cool.

  109. Urgh, Edge is like antithesis of ABDN. Utterly obsessed with theme, it reads like a bunch of film students who think everything they learnt applies directly to games.

  110. Yeah, Edge always kind of bugged me. The reviews are often not well-written!

  111. ABDN treats videogames as an art form by reviewing them like you’d review any other art form. They reference past works, talk about form, talk about influences from OUTSIDE VIDEOGAMES (holy shit! gamers heads explode! Books may have better stories then games? Actual albums may be better then game soundtracks?) and treat them seriously
    I just realized… this site is basically the Roger Ebert of gaming and I mean that in a good way. Everyone goes on about how ‘pretentious’ it is but all it does is treat games with the respect movies have been treated for years. Compared to the whole Tim Rogers community most gaming press is like Ain’t It Cool News
    Enough sucking up… there are exceptions. Eurogamer and a few other places do the same thing
    There’s also an absense of festishism. There’s a Certain Type of Person who would never put Doom on this list ’cause OMFG ITS UGLY AND ITS SO WESTERN AND ITS TOO HARD AND THE JOCKS PLAY IT while ignoring the fact that its a good fuckin videogame. I like that.
    Speaking of unpretentious games any love or mention for the Ratchet & Clank series? It feels silly typing that but damn if the series isn’t just… solid. The story works like it should – its not high art but it tells you why you’re going from Point A to Point B to blow up Monster X. There’s enough character and humour to make you like your onscreen avatar but not enough to be stupid. The weapons are fun, the level of challenge ramps up nicely (though it usually peaks around 80% of the way through) and after every play session I turn off the PS2 and feel like i’ve just bitten off a nice hunk of game. I’ve jumped over some platforms, dodged some lasers, and shot some decently designed enemies.
    I dunno… i’m not sure where the series would fit in a ‘serious’ list of games. Each one i’ve played is like having a wonderful cheeseburger and fries. Sure, its not nourishing or healthy but damn if it isn’t tasty and its nice how they actually cooked the onion to bring out the flavor
    This may have been covered in the Uncharted review

  112. icy I responded to you but it was lost by the interwebs

    so I’ll just mention that I said Strider and Call of Duty belonged to the same genre, not Counter Strike.

  113. i’m starting to wonder if god hand is even on this list! i’m betting it’s #2.

  114. oh tim some people on selectbutton have been wondering why no arcade games in the manifesto??? (outrun 2 aside)

  115. There better be a “PC” game on here at some point, other than Doom. Like I dunno, a Civ 2 or a Planescape or a Morrowind. Though I doubt it!

  116. Grand Theft Auto 1 or 2. Or Lemmings, by the same team. only they already kinda dissed Lemmings in the Lost Vikings review. so GTA1, which is pure fun

  117. I guess:

    out of this world
    super mario bros 2
    mother 2
    god hand (surprise entry, even though it was already denied(
    gears of war

    and two others.

  118. Silent Hill 2 (or some football game)
    Half-Life 2
    Gears of War
    Street Fighter III 3rd Strike
    Earthbound
    Super Mario Bros. 3
    Another World

  119. My guesses:

    Donkey Kong

    Final Fantasy
    (Possible review quote: “The DS and Playstation ports may have added loads and loads of new content, that is very welcome, but a part of me just gets a fuzzy feeling whenever I play the original. The one that started it all!”)

    Mario 64

    Grand Theft Auto III

    Ocarina of Time

    Tetris

    World of Warcraft

    Final Fantasy 7
    (Possible review quote: “Who can forget the first time they saw the cyberpunk metropolis of Midgar? The glitz and glamor of the golden saucer? Who didn’t feel honest rage whenever Sephiroth entered the scene to kill off yet another one of your party members? If there’s one game that proves that video games can be, nay, ARE art, that they can stand the test of time and still remain relevant and, dare I say, poignant, a hundred years from now, it’s Final Fantasy 7.”)

  120. god damn it gilbertsmith!

    how did you figure it out?

    who gave you the access codes?

    who do you work for?!?!

  121. Lawwal! I would place Final Fantasy 7 a little higher up, but that’s just me.

  122. Ratchet & Clank 2 or Sly Cooper or something. no art. pure gaming
    or Viewtiful Joe

    hell what i’m i saying. best game will be a game with one button and pure mechanics

    Space Invaders. possibly Extreme

  123. if the big reveal isn’t the release of tokyo psychic university, then river city ransom might be on the list

    and final fantasy 7 is quite possibly the one “made with the intention of riling [somebody] up”

  124. Killer 7 is also good for rilings ups! Games with a seven in the title are like fences made of samurai swords.

    I’d bet on Jak2 before even considering Ratchet & Clank 2 or Sly Cooper, seeing how Tim has been more fond of it in the past.

  125. Tokyo Psychic University! It’d be pretty funny to announce that at the top spot on your own greatest games list. The only problem is that, if that were the case, it’d be enough to send Tim-Hataz over the edge, and literally send him out of the internet on a rail.

    I don’t think 5PAC3 INVAD3R5 3XTR3M3 would be here, simply because the ABDN staff always pronounces games by the titles printed on the box, like Driv-three-er, Call of Duty to the Fourth Power. Nobody wants to keep writing Fivepacthree Invadthreerfive Threextrthreemthree.

    I always wanted to play a game with just one button (the ACTION Button) and no directional controls. It could come with a special controller shaped like a remote control (or a dildo) with just one big fat button on it. Suda51 could get away with that.

  126. what if #1 was just mario 3 after all. how anticlimactic would that be!

  127. After all the talk about spears, the DQ battle system being a placeholder, crunchy mechanics, obvious objectives, injecting life into the world AND making the player give a damn about it I keep coming back to Terranigma. I haven’t played it in a while though, so I can’t tell if it’s a kinda crappy game I really enjoyed at the time or a truly great game I missed the point of. I wonder if I could start and finish it before the big reveal…

  128. There hasn’t been a music game represented on this list yet (the closest to one probably being Outrun 2). Could Um Jammer Lammy be #6?

  129. smilton: I think OutRun 2 *is* the music game for this list.

    The easy predictions:
    Earthbound
    Gears of War
    A Mario, probably 3

    Also, Team Fortress 2 seems reasonable, but I’m just not feeling that one. A Half-Life is more likely, probably 2. Or Silent Hill, also probably 2.

    Bioshock, Braid and suchlike (in the opinion of ABDN) display flawed design principles and could never be on this list, regardless of how right they got a particular portion of the gameplay experience – it’s the whole that counts. That’s also why God Hand won’t show up. Also, no Final Fantasies; Dragon Quest V is the Ur-Final Fantasy in this particular collection.

    GTA won’t make it, I think, because of certain objections to the basic concept; IIRC, Tim once described it as the guys at Rockstar trying to make all games at once, ticking off entries in a big list of possible gameplays. Therefore, too scattered.

    I want Planescape: Torment to be here quite badly, simply so I could read its review; I’d like that very much. But the more I see of the list, the less likely that becomes (P:T wants to be a novel a bit too much for its own good, which is fine by me, but I can see how that could prevent the perfection of unity). If anything, one of the Fallouts could make it, probably the first; those two have more crunchy moment-to-moment gameplay, and generally more unity, while still working with a well-done story and setting. They also arguably resuscitated the genre, which might work in their favor.

    P.S.: Strange Attractors is a One Button Game.

  130. I kinda think of these reviews as sorta having games represent their genres, in a way… so once you’ve discussed Doom do you really need to discuss HL2? Its an awesome game with a great sense of flow and some innovative weapons but talking about it after talking about Doom wouldn’t really bring much new to the table I think
    I thought Tim was complimenting GTA… there’s a Saints Row trailer thats mocking all the cool stuff in GTA4 (like ‘do you want to go bowling? or BLOW SOMEONE UP WITH A CHAINSAW?’). I reckon the first GTA would be great, though
    I’d like to see Baldur’s Gate 2 on the list despite it being the antithesis of a ‘push the Action Button!’ type game. Planescape Torment is awesome but it works better as a story then a game… though its a good game
    but yeah, seeing an isometric PC RPG would be neat
    i haven’t played Jak 2 but i love the idea of just picking a game that resolutly ISN’T art for this list. i’m not sure i learn anything while playing R&C but I am sure that grinding on power lines and shooting robots is what gaming may be about

  131. Half-Life 2 has almost nothing in common with Doom.

    Either way, I very much doubt any of the remaining items will be “PC games” in the pure sense of the term.

  132. Except for basic genre. I don’t want to sound like icycalm but Tim seems to be talking partly on the basis of mechanics and Doom’s crisp, clear FPS mechanics were carried over to HL2

  133. guys, don’t discount the contribution of people who, like you and me, are not tim rogers to this excellent series of articles

  134. wow, i exploded with joy at the choice of third strike for this list!

    since the word VERSUS is up there in bold and all caps, i’ll mention that i liked the heather campbell review more, but that’s quite possibly because i just read david cabrera’s review of neogeo battle coliseum, which has a much better real true arcade story in it.

  135. If SFIII had Dan in it, it’d be the only fighting game I ever play. It’s bold and rad to have included III instead of II.

  136. I dared to hope for ONE… this has been a better morning.

    Can only really echo the positive sentiments of others, but particular congratulations for managing to cover the damn near exact two excuses for my interest in 3S – the magnificent oddballs, and the basic inexhaustableness of its tricks.

    Oro 4 Lyfe etc.

  137. My God I despise SFIII. It’s like learning both Japanese and everything there is to know about the Gundam universe so you can argue for fourteen hours with a crazy Japanese shut-in. There are better conversations in languages I already know.

    Can’t really argue with it being there, though. It probably IS the best fighting game ever made. And I’ve played it for several hours, so my box is ticked.

  138. I would have thought Virtua Fighter 4 Evo would have been a contender for the fighter spot in this list. At least I can play that one a little.

  139. Ooh, getting close now…
    Should have seen that Pac-Man: CE coming. But Earthbound (or ONE of the Mother games) can’t possibly NOT be on the list. And there’s still a football game missing. Also, a Mario game will win, and that will be fine by me. So what’s the one left? Most likely something a bit obscure that never even crossed my mind…
    Soon we’ll know! The most important thing is that I now have a whole bunch of games to play!

  140. It seems the list isn’t taking anything into consideration besides good, sensible game design, put towards meaningful effect on the player, so it’s, ironically, kind of unpredictable if you’re used to lists that take things like “cultural relevance” and “technical innovation” into account. Really though, it’s the only list I’ve read that holds up, consistently, to any kind of solid, organized concept of what makes a video game good. Every entry on the list has been sort of “I didn’t see that coming, but I should have.”

  141. For those who actually care more about understanding videogames than reading generic blanket statements made by casual non-players in an attempt to pass themselves off as some sort of videogame critics, here is the explanation of why SFII is a much better game than SFIII, written by a national champion in both games:

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/2d_vs_3d/

    I’ll make it easy for you by quoting the relevant passage:

    “This is also why (when I’m in one of my nastier moods) I have a problem with the SFIII series. When you’re more than half a screen away (at most), there’s just not much game to be played, since any projectile can be easily parried (re: it fails to control space, or to effectively threaten). It’s like taking time out or something. Whereas before every inch gained or lost could dramatically affect the match, the only thing you can really do at a distance in the III series is to charge up your meter by whiffing moves (weak), or (again) just be turtling for its own sake. This adds up to a betrayal of one of the primary advantages of 2D games, and doesn’t give a big enough return in terms of other tricks/fun offered up close. Tekken, VF, etc. all do a better job at making the up-close “in your face” game interesting and complex. SFIII is a dumbed-down up-close game, minus the good parts of distance strategies in other 2D games, which is a step in the wrong direction. The universal value of parrying coupled with the disgraced role of fireballs helps to contribute to an overall “flatness” in which a lot of matches consist solely of trading (the same) high-priority pokes, over and over again.”

    By the way, Tim only needs to add StarCraft to the list to make IGN proud:

    In a similar vein, if they include a 2D fighter it will be 3rd Strike; if they include a 2D shooter it will be a Treasure game; if they include an RTS it will be StarCraft — that’s how these lists are manufactured: by feeding the public’s perceived opinion back to them, in an endlessly self-validating, self-referential loop.

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/leave_ranking_to_the_experts/

    Long live complete and utter ignorance!

  142. Sometimes I’m glad I’m not a genius, because geniuses are always misunderstood as elitist jerks.

    Totally not being sarcastic, at ALL.

  143. How about unbearable and all-encompasing arrogance? That going to stick around much longer? Christ mac, you could have figured out a recipe for an easy 5-step home made cure for cancer on your site there for all I care, I still wouldn’t be able to scale the high wall of your own self regard just to get to it, stretching off into fucking eternity and all as it is.

  144. Money match, Icy?

    I’m a casual non-player so it should be pretty cake.

  145. Here’s to dimwitted philistinery! I hope it’s okay with serious game lovers if we continue to wallow in our own shit and filth.

  146. “I hope it’s okay with serious game lovers if we continue to wallow in our own shit and filth.”

    You don’t really have a choice in the matter, and neither do they. If you were born in shit and filth, you are condemned to wallow in it until the day you die. The most others can do is keep their distance, so as not to suffer from your stink.

  147. “If you were born in shit and filth, you are condemned to wallow in it until the day you die.”

    Wow! I kind of hope you don’t actually believe that!

    Or that the “you” is not a “general” “you”.

    I don’t have the patience to actually read the posts that begot that last one.

  148. Regarding what Seth said about Street Fighter II’s distance game vs. the lack of distance game in III, he’s using the argument to demonstrate his opinions on three-dimensional fighters. Parrying, if you can do it, negates a distance game in the two dimensional brawler … but doesn’t that allow for a greater variety of characters? What good are grappling characters if the game can be dominated at a great distance? Do we really think that the Shotokan set of moves is the only set of moves worth investigating in a fighting game? (That, and Guile?) Sure, you could make the game into a long-distance match game, but then it might as well be a shooter.

    The parry allows for a larger set of fighting styles, I believe. And it is not a get out of jail free card — you’ve still got to be able to do the move for it to be effective. And you have the option to not parry.

    As someone who has met Seth, has played against him, and has read a large number of his articles, I would like to believe he’s using this for the sake of the argument against three-dimensional brawlers. I don’t think he’d still be playing III if he thought it was a infinitely weaker game than II. Then again, maybe not. I’m not willing to speak for him, and since you didn’t make this argument yourself, I don’t really have a way to argue with you about it.

    As a side note, I’ll add that I don’t call myself hardcore in my article. But I’m certainly not a casual non-player. Do you play in tournaments, Alex? I certainly have. As nervous as I was to write my review, because I know that there are better players out there who would disagree with me on certain points, at least I’m capable of forming my own opinions based on actual experience.

  149. “If you were born in shit and filth, you are condemned to wallow in it until the day you die.”

    “Wow! I kind of hope you don’t actually believe that!”

    I used to think that people could rise to any level regardless of their roots. That turned out to be a naive, simple-minded notion which I’ve long ago put behind me. So yes, I do believe that. Or, to be more precise, I don’t “believe” anything: this is just a fact which I’ve seen countless times before my very eyes.

    As for heather’s reply, man, what a mess. Hard to decide which astonishingly ignorant, simple-minded comment to reply to first!

    “Parrying, if you can do it, negates a distance game in the two dimensional brawler … but doesn’t that allow for a greater variety of characters?”

    LOLWHAT? STAY OFF THE DRUGS GIRL!

    “What good are grappling characters if the game can be dominated at a great distance?”

    No one says that games with distance games are AUTOMATICALLY dominated at a great distance. It’s just an added dimension that makes the game more complex, and therefore more interesting. Re-read the article, paying more attention this time.

    “Sure, you could make the game into a long-distance match game, but then it might as well be a shooter.”

    So SFII might as well be a shooter? You sure you are not a gamefaqs bot?

    “The parry allows for a larger set of fighting styles, I believe. And it is not a get out of jail free card — you’ve still got to be able to do the move for it to be effective.”

    lol, yeah. I kinda see how this might be a problem for some people. Of course it has nothing to do with the point in question.

    “And you have the option to not parry.”

    lol, nice one. Let’s ban parrying from SFIII so that projectile attacks will have meaning again.

    “As someone who has met Seth, has played against him, and has read a large number of his articles, I would like to believe he’s using this for the sake of the argument against three-dimensional brawlers.”

    You don’t have to “believe” anything. We are not talking about religions here. The article is right there, and the quote is right there, and they speak for themselves. What the man is saying is crystal-clear to anyone above the reading comprehension level of a 12-year-old.

    “I’m not willing to speak for him, and since you didn’t make this argument yourself, I don’t really have a way to argue with you about it.”

    lol yeah, another cute one. As if people were incapable of discussing other peoples’ opinions without the original author’s presence. The truth of course is that you have nothing to say.

    “Do you play in tournaments, Alex?”

    Yes.

    “I certainly have.”

    Good for you. Have a cookie.

    “As nervous as I was to write my review, because I know that there are better players out there who would disagree with me on certain points, at least I’m capable of forming my own opinions based on actual experience.”

    And who isn’t? Every little retard is capable of forming their own retarded opinions based on their own little retarded experiences.

    Intelligent people can do better than that.

  150. I used to think that people could rise to any level regardless of their roots. That turned out to be a naive, simple-minded notion which I’ve long ago put behind me. So yes, I do believe that. Or, to be more precise, I don’t “believe” anything: this is just a fact which I’ve seen countless times before my very eyes.

    Well, I’m certainly not saying that anyone can become anything, that any kid in any American high school can and will grow up to be president; some people, after all, have bent ankles and thus will never be a world-class marathon running. I’m just saying that it’s kind of sick to assume that people can not and will never be able to consciously change.

    Just because you’ve seen something happen doesn’t mean that the inverse is impossible, or even highly improbable! (Nor does it mean that you’re not missing out on some infinitely huge bigger picture.) I can recommend you some excellent books re: this subject and computational finance.

  151. I think you have to have been born pretty lucky to think that people can’t rise above circumstances. I was literally born homeless, and I’m doing okay for myself (then again, considering my opinion in fighting games, maybe I’m not).

  152. “I’m just saying that it’s kind of sick to assume that people can not and will never be able to consciously change.”

    You are taking what I said very superficially, which is understandable, I guess, given the circumstances. So allow me to elaborate.

    People obviously change every single second of their lives — there is no doubt about that. But the range of possibilities of what they can BECOME is limited by what they already ARE, whilst the choices they make every single second (which determine what they become) are a product of their past interacting with their present.

    None of these actions (which are the product of calculations, taking place in our brains) are really “conscious” in the way you use the word. This notion of “conscious change” is merely a prejudice left over from Christianity (which inherited it from Judaism), the purpose of which was to introduce the bogus concepts of “free will” and “sin”, with the help of which it could render men accountable for their actions, and thus give itself the right to find them guilty and lord itself over them.

    But no man is accountable for what he does, any more than all the rest of the animals are. Condemning a man who commits a murder, for example, is nothing but a brutal piece of hypocrisy and naivety — for if we were honest, we would have to admit that had we been placed in the exact same circumstances as he was (which circumstances also include his whole past, as well as his physiological and psychological makeup — meaning that we would have to become him) we would have acted the same way.

    No one is free to consciously become something they are not — in the end, you can only become what you already are.

    I will copy-paste two passages from Nietzsche which are relevant. There are many more, but those should give you an idea of what’s going on.

    The individual is, in his future and in his past, a piece of fate, one law more, one necessity more for everything that is and everything that will be. To say to him “change yourself” means to demand that everything should change, even in the past…
    (Twilight of the Idols, paragraph 6)

    The error of free will. — We no longer have any sympathy today with the concept of ‘free will’: we know only too well what it is — the most infamous of all the arts of the theologian for making mankind ‘accountable’ in his sense of the word, that is to say for making mankind dependent on him… Men were thought of as ‘free’ so that they could become guilty: consequently, every action HAD to be thought of as willed, the origin of every action as lying in the consciousness ( — whereby the most fundamental falsification in psychologicis was made into the very principe of psychology)…
    (Twilight of the Idols, paragraph 7)

  153. you are a silly person, icy. but then, solipsists usually are.
    this is all pretty hilarious, considering nietzsche’s text.
    philosophic selectivity has never been more enjoyable (painful) to watch.

  154. i’ve been trying to scroll past icycalm’s comments and the other comments they spawn, but that’s getting increasingly difficult!

  155. …just want to say these top 25 game reviews are a nice source of entertainment, albeit possibly BRAINWASHING entertainment (and being aware of that, I’ll take the risk). The reviews are pretty down-to-earth in style and I appreciate ‘em; these being the only “reviews” I do not simply skim through. So, heck, what can I say… Even if the next batch turn out to be the most mind-numbingly obvious and predictable choices (and since the choices don’t really matter) I’ll still read what you all have to say. Great site, and great writing, folks.

  156. here are my OFFICIAL PREDICTIONS

    #4: call of duty to the fourth power
    #3: mother 3
    #2: super mario brothers 3

    and

    #1: TOKYO PSYCHIC UNIVERSITY

    so let me, preemptively, congratulate you on your massive balls re: #1

  157. Wow, Gears of War as number 6? Now that´s ballsy! And unexpected! What´s next? Super Mario Brohers 3 NOT being number 1?

    …Actually, the way things are urning up, I wouldn´t even be surprised if that was the case!

  158. “My God I despise SFIII. It’s like learning both Japanese and everything there is to know about the Gundam universe so you can argue for fourteen hours with a crazy Japanese shut-in. There are better conversations in languages I already know.”

    Thats… exactly how I feel about fighting games! I like sprite art but if i want to have my ass kicked by a game with gorgeous art design i’ll play Metal Slug or Mega Man X. at least i can understand them
    i’m kinda decent at Guilty Gear X, though thats mostly button mashing

  159. For the benefit of everyone’s sanity and to not further his self promotion attempts, if you are the happy user of Mozilla Firefox, and have installed the Greasemonkey extension, you can click on the following script:

    http://knos.free.fr/code/abdn-axe-philistines.user.js

    This little script will simply hide any comment made by icycalm on actionbutton.net

  160. I really love the first Guilty Gear. I think it finds just the right balance between a more solid, strategic, SFII style fighting game, and a flashy, double-jumpy Marvel vs. Capcom 2 style game.

    I don’t really like the rest of the series as much. I play GGX2 or something and I’m just lost, I don’t know what’s happening on the screen.

    You know what game is kind of underrated? Tobal No. 1. The fighting is kind of mellow and laid back, and the aesthetic is really pleasing.

  161. Tlon: I can actually hold my own at pretty much any fighting game I’ve played, I just never have any idea why I win or lose other than me or my opponent not knowing the couple of appropriate moves to respond to the move that just killed me/him. It’s like a vastly expanded version of rock-paper-scissors, which is pretty bullshit if you consider what it’s actually trying to simulate.

  162. i can’t play the “good” fighting games because, well, besides the fact i’m no good at them, neither is any one else i know. and when we both kind of suck, then there’s no point arguing about parrying or distance, or stuff like that. and even if i was excellent at it, i’d have to go out of my way to find others that are good, and those people don’t seem to play it for enjoyment. at least not anymore. it’s like trying to play a quick game of park basketball with a professional baller who plays every game like it’s the finals.

    so that’s why i sort of agree with tion’s agreement of kinto.

    i guess my main point in all this is who the fuck shit in icycalm’s cheerios?

  163. and i’m going to go out on a limb and say ghosts and goblins is number 1, if it isn’t a promo for a game that doesn’t exist yet.

  164. and GilbertSmith, you seem like a great guy, but are all your videos for these reviews going to be about pooping and butts?

  165. They’re all going to be about ingestion. The games that I consider great are the ones that become a part of me once I play them, they change my behavior or my outlook in some small way.

    I’ve got one or two more coming before the Manifesto is done, and, if I can come up with an excuse to show my ass, then you will see my ass. Luckily, I think I’ve exhausted all my butt-related-ingestion options, and could not, in good conscience, show it again.

    Then again, a guy could get a shot of Final Fantasy 7 brand penicillin in his butt.

  166. with fighting games: at my old univeristy i beat the Fighting Game Champion on one of those SNK fighters (Art of Fighters i think) just through button mashing and randomness
    somebody needs to take a look at the Bleach games Treasure made for the DS. special moves are on the touch screen, so the memorization is gone – its all about timing and choosing the right move. its pretty neatCurtain Bandroom

  167. I’ve been loving these reviews, and also loving this discussion thread. Let’s all have a great big cuddle.

    I don’t agree with a lot of the list, but appreciate it as a well-articulated statement of your point of view – all the other reviews here are now that much more useful and interesting, given this list as a sort of yardstick.

    It’s nice to know where you’re coming from, is I guess what I’m trying to say.

    Outrun 2 being on the list wins ABDN a permanent bookmark slot with me, even if it’s behind Gears of War, which is kind of its antithesis. I’d love to think that there’s another AM2 title to come, but I’m not holding my breath.

  168. I dunno if this has been asked yet because seriously fuck all you guys for letting all that happen in this comments area. But tim, do you plan on keeping the manifesto on the top of the front page list forever, with updates only updating underneath it? That would be kinda cool, in a way, though maybe slightly undermining. It’s gotta be integrated into the main/front page format if not.

  169. “If you were born in shit and filth, you are condemned to wallow in it until the day you die. The most others can do is keep their distance, so as not to suffer from your stink.”

    “People obviously change every single second of their lives — there is no doubt about that. But the range of possibilities of what they can BECOME is limited by what they already ARE, whilst the choices they make every single second (which determine what they become) are a product of their past interacting with their present.”

    I must not be understanding you correctly, as these two statements appear blatantly contradictory. If a man’s choices are a product of his past and present, can not one influence a man’s choices simply by influencing his present? I know it works on dogs, how much different can the average Actionbutton reader really be?

  170. wrestleman T-T

    i always knew you really liked us T-T

    analogosagnos:

    the manifesto, when finished, will be allowed to sink; however, a permanent link to it will be created for the sidebar.

    we might even change the order of games in the list, or put new games in, or whatever

    yeahhhhh

  171. Oh man, would be great to see a dynamic list rather than a static or annual list. There’s a finality to the static approach that kind of says “And that’s THAT”, and kind of disregards new games, or games you’re playing for the first time after writing the list, etc.

    It’d be cool to see a regular top 25 maintained, changed whenever something remarkable comes along, and with the replaced games being placed on another, non-numbered list, like Roger Ebert’s Great Movies page.

    I’m still looking forward to the twenty five shittiest games list! The Action Button Dot Net Shitifesto, I guess.

  172. good save Gilbert! (new band name)

    like an overrated shit list? that could be fun.

  173. “If a man’s choices are a product of his past and present, can not one influence a man’s choices simply by influencing his present?”

    Of course, and not only that, but each of us is “influencing” everyone else’s “choices” ALL the time, regardless of whether we want to or not. That’s what Nietzshe means when he says that the individual is “piece of fate, one law more, one necessity more for everything that is and everything that will be.”

    But I put the words “influence” and “choices” in quotation marks because our influence on other people can never cause them to make choices they wouldn’t have made under the circumstances. Yet it is only THEN that we would be “influencing” them in the strong sense of the word, which is what people mean when they say they have “influenced” someone. Same goes for the “choices” people make under our “influence”. When someone makes a so-called “choice”, what happens is that his brain takes in all the circumstances of the present and picks a course of action based on the person’s physical and psychological qualities, as well as his whole past. THAT brain, under the same circumstances, would always pick the same choice — in fact, he never had a choice.

    Or, to put it another way, from each individual’s perspective, while he is considering his options for his next action, it SEEMS to him that he DOES have a choice, and that is how it should be, since life would otherwise be unbearable.

    But from the perspective of an outside observer he might as well be a mindless, preprogrammed machine. — Pre-programmed, but not predictable, because of how the universe is built (see Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle and Chaos Theory).

  174. “we might even change the order of games in the list, or put new games in, or whatever”

    At last, here is one move I can approve of!

  175. man icy, i can’t wait to see your reaction to #1!

    once it’s up, i will gladly delete all of your posts in this thread if you want.

  176. I’m afraid I still don’t understand :(

    Man is without free will, because every decision he makes is mandated by his “programming,” some of which is written before he is even born, the rest of which is written in response to the totality of his experience. If presented with a choice, one of these “human computers” will evaluate the available data and eventually come to the only possible conclusion.

    As a result, one man cannot directly influence another. He can influence another’s experiences, of course, and he can influence the circumstances under which another’s choices are made, but he cannot influence the choice itself – no one can!

    This is all well and good. But how, in God’s name, does it prove your claim?

    “If you were born in shit and filth, you are condemned to wallow in it until the day you die. The most others can do is keep their distance, so as not to suffer from your stink.”

  177. Whoooooaaaaa, icy just made a post on a video game top 25 thread with nietzsche AND heisenburg I mean I think it’s pretty much all over from here.

    for the record heisenburg says the simple act of observation irrevocably changes what is being observed. of course this is REALLY STUPID because he’s talking about sub atomic particles, not people. dude wasn’t much of a philosopher

    AND all you’re really saying is people act within their means, which is just another way of saying people harbor unqie traits (we call them “personalities”) which is REALLY just a way of saying absolutely nothing.

    and dude. come on. nietzsche was all about the “triumph of the will.” he believed in people’s ability to do things, he just didn’t think these things were dained from a higher power or even all that important in the grand scheme of things. he wanted people to embrace the empowerment that comes from a lack of self import. he was also pretty adamant in the idea that the “strong” (those that act on their will) can and will subjugate the weak, which is pretty much a manner of influence in the end anyway.

    IN CONCLUSION

    what the fuck am I doing

  178. “man icy, i can’t wait to see your reaction to #1! once it’s up, i will gladly delete all of your posts in this thread if you want.”

    Intriguing! I can’t imagine what game could possibly make me want to ask for that. Even if you put Civ or Ketsui up there — my favorite games ever — my comments in this thread would still stand. Same goes if you picked some stupid game so that you could be all like “lol, the list was a j/k guys”.

    As for the philosophical discussion… Maybe we should start another thread? Here goes anyway…

    “Man is without free will, because every decision he makes is mandated by his “programming,”

    Wrong. Man is without free will because the concept of free will is absurd. “Free will and unfree will are mythology: in real life it is only a question of STRONG and WEAK wills.” (Beyond Good and Evil, paragraph 21). In other words free and unfree will are delusions. I am not “free” to lift a 1,000-pound rock no matter how much I may want to. A criminal is not free not to commit criminal acts, whatever the Christian or the Democrat may think. There is no indifferent substratum inside the individual which may freely choose to pursue this or that course of action, “for the desire for ‘freedom of will’ in that metaphysical superlative sense which is unfortunately still dominant in the minds of the half-educated, the desire to bear the whole and sole responsibility for one’s actions and to absolve world, ancestors, chance, society, from responsibility for them, is nothing less than the desire to be precisely that causa sui [cause of itself] and, with more than Munchhausen temerity, to pull oneself into existence out of the swamp of nothingness by one’s own hair.” (BGE paragraph 21)

    “If presented with a choice, one of these “human computers” will evaluate the available data and eventually come to the only possible conclusion.”

    Not the only possible conclusion — the only possible conclusion for HIM under the circumstances. (Of course, since every set of circumstances is unique and unrepeatable, this ends up being the only possible conclusion…)

    “As a result, one man cannot directly influence another. He can influence another’s experiences, of course, and he can influence the circumstances under which another’s choices are made, but he cannot influence the choice itself – no one can!”

    This is a subtle point. If you influence the circumstances you influence the choice — there’s no question about that. Perhaps the influence is infinitesimal, but it is still an influence, and in the long run will certainly lead to an infinitesimally small change of choice. But that doesn’t mean that men can change to become something they are not, or to make choices which they otherwise wouldn’t have been capable of making. The range of possibilities of what a man may do, and what a man may become, are inscribed in him from birth (indeed, from long before that), in the same way that the range of possibilities in a worm or in a lion are. — And there are worms and lions among men as among animals. — And just as the worm will never become a lion no matter how many and how strong influences he receives from his environment, neither is it possible for the worm-man to become a lion-man.

    That’s where my comment that frustrates you is coming from. It came as a reply to this malicious comment by the retard GilbertSmith:

    “Here’s to dimwitted philistinery! [Translation: You are a dimwitted philistine, icycalm] I hope it’s okay with serious game lovers if we continue to wallow in our own shit and filth.”

    You think GilbertSmith is free to “consciously change”, as Tim put it, from a stupid man to an intelligent man? He is in fact as incapable of doing that as Tim is to “consciously change” from an intelligent man to a stupid man.

    I will repeat what I said before:

    No one is free to consciously become something they are not — in the end, you can only become what you already are.

    (Nietzsche’s last book, by the way, is titled “Ecce Homo: How One Becomes What One Is.)

    As for negativelife’s comments, they are not really worth responding to apart from mentioning that Heisenberg’s subatomic particles OBVIOUSLY influence people’s thoughts and actions. (What do you think that ‘thinking’ is? A series of reactions between subatomic particles.)

  179. “You think GilbertSmith is free to “consciously change”, as Tim put it, from a stupid man to an intelligent man? He is in fact as incapable of doing that as Tim is to “consciously change” from an intelligent man to a stupid man.”

    I knew this guy who got brain damaged from binge drinking, I’m not going to say who it was but in my opinion he was pretty smart before that. Also, if I can lift a thousand-pound rock, does that make me an ant-man?

  180. “You think GilbertSmith is free to “consciously change”, as Tim put it, from a stupid man to an intelligent man? He is in fact as incapable of doing that as Tim is to “consciously change” from an intelligent man to a stupid man.”

    What type of retarded notion is that. Entirely based on your ass licking who’s who in “Video Game Journalism” opinion.

  181. I’d think you’d get in to trouble were you to attempt to interpret heisenberg in a philosophical manner. “Thinking” is no more a “series of reactions between subatomic particles” than anything is, you realize. Unless you actually believe that a neuron is subatomic, at which point you should probably, uhhh, reevaluate your stance or something.

    IN THE MEANTIME

    Nietzsche was kind of a fascist. He seems like something of a personal hero to you though, so I won’t shit on your parade.

  182. Icy: You remind me a lot of Bazarov the Nihilist from Turgenev’s “Fathers and Sons”. I guess that may be a compliment depending on how you see yourself. But even Nihilists shake from time to time, sometimes i see that in your writing, then almost instantly suppress yourself with philosophers rhetoric.

    Naya

  183. “Here’s to dimwitted philistinery! [Translation: You are a dimwitted philistine, icycalm] I hope it’s okay with serious game lovers if we continue to wallow in our own shit and filth.”

    What are you, fucking retarded? Translation: I am sarcastically agreeing with you that one’s opinion on a FIGHTING GAME can qualify them for the myriad of insults you’ve broadly thrown at people who enjoy Street Fighter III. You’re calling everyone else a dimwitted philistine, you dumb ding dong.

  184. I mean, did that really fly right over your head? How did you not get that, Icy?

  185. Do you like, just not KNOW what a dick you’ve been? Because you really should’ve got what I was saying.

  186. As for the rest of your post, I’m not going to read it: I have a mirror, I can watch a guy jerking his dick with reckless abandon anytime I want.

  187. The joke is that those guys are just a bunch of armchair-Nietzsche jerkoffs, too. Using an undeserved sense of accomplishment and intellectual pride to pretend they’re better than everyone around them.

    Now then, back to that mirror dick jerking you and I were discussing just a minute ago.

  188. fuck, why did I do that. that’s some real 4chan shit right there

  189. Gilbert! I was under the impression you were using that icy-filter!

    I was going to make a post about how no one’s going to use it because everyone realizes I am the one saying the most worthwhile things in this thread, but then I decided my arrogance had gone far enough and kept my mouth shut. Oh well.

    As for people calling me and Nietzsche “fascists” or “nihilists” (both things which we most certainly are NOT), I have this to say: responding to highly-developed philosophical arguments with handy label-words is the lowest form of thinking one can aspire to. It basically frees you from the labor of examining and evaluating these arguments on their own merits. The end result is that — whatever your response — it will be worthless. Something which pretty much goes for the whole of this thread apart from my comments.

  190. I went through the painful brainbreaking labour of examining and evaluating your second and third-hand arguments on their own merits, and my responses were still worthless! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME, YOU MAGNIFICENT LION-MAN?!

  191. Yeah but you called me out by name and curiosity got the best of me. I’m turning it back on now, and I guess I’ll just have to turn it back on and ignore your pleas for my attention from here on.

    Also, my sister is mentally retarded. Calling me a retard is like if I called you a nigger. It’s kind of frowned on in this day and age.

    Note to everyone else: I actually don’t give a shit about the word retard, I’m just being a dick.

  192. Yes it does, so if I were Icy I’d be worried, because I had sex with his mom, etcetera etcetera.

  193. “responding to highly-developed philosophical arguments with handy label-words is the lowest form of thinking one can aspire to. It basically frees you from the labor of examining and evaluating these arguments on their own merits. The end result is that — whatever your response — it will be worthless.”

    Pretty much. This is why nothing you say is ever taken seriously by anyone. Nietzsche For Dummies might impress the kinds of people that devote the waking parts of their lives to perfecting their Pink Sweets game, but the bullet-point buzzwords are lost on people who have a brain.

  194. are people actually arguing that there is more to life than particles?

  195. oh nevermind. it appears not.

    anyway, I think street fighter 3rd strike is awesome even though i’ve only played it once.

    i watched a lot of competitive play videos a while back. haven’t ever done that before, for any other game!

  196. “Pretty much. This is why nothing you say is ever taken seriously by anyone.”

    You wouldn’t believe how many people take me seriously.

    Srsly.

    We are talking tens of thousands, and that’s just for starters. I was in fact thinking of starting a trackback thread in my forum, which would reveal that there are thousands and thousands of people who take my word as the gospel.

    Not that that proves anything (one would in fact be tempted to assume the opposite, human beings being what they are) — besides the fact that you are stupid.

    “I went through the painful brainbreaking labour of examining and evaluating your second and third-hand arguments on their own merits, and my responses were still worthless! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME, YOU MAGNIFICENT LION-MAN?!”

    My arguments are not second- and third-hand, BUT EVEN IF THEY WERE 100-HAND that would still not change anything. The truth doesn’t belong to anyone, and it doesn’t need to be defended by anyone. It just lies there in plain view, to be apprehended only by those who have eyes with which to see.

    And I wasn’t calling YOUR responses worthless — you were just asking questions, which I answered. What’s worthless in this thread is replies like Gilbert’s, ario’s, negativelife’s etc, which are just displays of hatred/intense dislike for someone whose words they don’t understand, or petty insinutations like heather’s (have YOU competed in tournaments, Alex? Because I sure have, even if my replies to Seth’s article are at best ludicrous!).

  197. to the icyfilter guy: that shit doesn’t work, because it can’t determine which comments *by other people* are part of mr. calm’s attendant shitstorm

    so you get just as much stupid crap, but now it’s stupid crap without context, which is even worse. it’s actually an interesting problem in the abstract! not so much in practice because you just want stupid crap to go away

    in case anyone wants to hide this post programmatically, i’m going to include an experimental shitstorm flag at the end for your little state machines to react to

    =[EXPERIMENTAL SHITSTORM FLAG]=

  198. icy, people understand what you are saying…

    arguments aside, why do you have such immense contempt for people who merely find objections to to stuff you’ve said?

  199. “Nietzsche For Dummies might impress the kinds of people that devote the waking parts of their lives to perfecting their Pink Sweets game, but the bullet-point buzzwords are lost on people who have a brain.”

    Thank you, Alex, for proving my point.

  200. well, this is better than any comments on kotaku or destructoid or something of a similar ilk. i’d rather read long-winded arguments about other people’s philosophy then reading about people calling each other “teh ghey”. although this is probably the same thing. just more words.

    hooray for video games!

  201. Heather, I try to act out within my realm of control. That is the stoic (or maybe even epicurean) thing to do as far as I’m concerned. I’m not imposing it to others, just offering it for those few who chose not to learn programming. My interventions I aim to keep short, to the point and bounded in time. It’s preferable to avoid spending too much time talking about (and to) brutes and philistines. Unlike someone like Erik Naggum who is abbrasive, yet insightful, AK has rarely shown a willingness to bring wisdom to a discussion, only self-righteous anger, and an ability to engage into “extreme categorization” (platonic masturbation?) in the most divisive way.

    All the while using the reactions caused by his rude character to boost his ego, mistaking arrogance for eliteness, brash words for wit, knowledge for wisdom and kindred in vice for a following.

    Said that, we might get along in real life, even.

    And this will be my last word on this topic. I wish him to get wiser and older, and more importantly to be happy. If anyone’s angry at him, it’s their own’s fault for not taking responsability for what’s ultimately in their control: their own’s reaction.

  202. I’m not exactly angry with him or anything. I don’t even know the guy, he can’t make me angry. I am, honestly, just being an asshole and amusing myself.

  203. time for a fun experiment:

    from this post forward i will ban anyone who replies to icycalm re: anything not related to videogames.

    i will not, however, ban icycalm.

    this could be fun!

  204. “from this post forward i will ban anyone who replies to icycalm re: anything not related to videogames.”

    Unfortunately, EVERYTHING is related to videogames, in one way or another.

    And I say unfortunately because this fact makes analyzing videogames extremely difficult. The deeper you go the more connections you find with everything else, and if you keep pushing the theories as far as they will go you eventually pass to the realm of pataphysics. Pataphysics being the realm where ALL human concepts and theories eventually end up.

    This, too, is a result of how the universe is built (see Heisenberg and Chaos Theory again).

  205. Depends. This one right here I’d say… hmm… well, the fun factor is quite high, difficulty medium, depth just above the surface…

    3/5

    Not bad. Not bad at all.

    Let’s wait for the sequel and see.

  206. I’ll give you guys something to chew on re: Nietzsche x Videogames:

    “Mature manhood: That means to have rediscovered the seriousness one had as a child at play.”
    –Beyond Good and Evil, paragraph 94

    “On the aim of science. — What? The aim of science should be to give men as much pleasure and as little displeasure as possible? But what if pleasure and displeasure were so tied together that whoever WANTED to have as much as possible of one MUST also have as much as possible of the other — that whoever wanted to learn to “jubilate up to the heavens” would also have to be prepared for “depression unto death”? And this is how things may well be. At least the Stoics believed that this was how things were, and they were consistent when they also desired as little pleasure as possible, in order to get as little displeasure as possible out of life. (When they kept saying “The virtuous man is the happiest man,” this was both the school’s eye-catching sign for the great mass and a casuistic subtlety for the subtle.)

    To this day you have the choice: either AS LITTLE DISPLEASURE AS POSSIBLE, painlessness in brief — and in the last analysis socialists and politicians of all parties have no right to promise their people more than that — or AS MUCH DISPLEASURE AS POSSIBLE as the price for the growth of an abundance of subtle pleasures and joys that have rarely been relished yet. If you decide for the former and desire to diminish and lower the level of human pain, you also have to diminish and lower the level of their CAPACITY FOR JOY. Actually, SCIENCE can promote either goal. So far it may still be better known for its power of depriving man of his joys and making him colder, more like a statue, more stoic. But it may yet be found to be the GREAT DISPENSER OF PAIN. And then its counterforce might be found at the same time: its immense capacity for making new galaxies of joy flare up.
    –The Gay Science, paragraph 12

  207. nietzsche and videogames? hmm. interesting connection, I’ll give it that.

    (better than anything Michel Ancel’s ever managed, anyway)

    it’s probably been said already, but I like that this list includes reviews rather than simple single-paragraph summaries like “the stunning graphics and wonderexcellemazing gameplay make this an obvious choice for NUMBER 5 on our countdown”.

  208. 1. um where is the proof that pleasure and pain are tied together.

    2. who cares what humans care about?

    3. so videogames are the pleasure half of science whereas ____ is the displeasure half?

  209. “1. um where is the proof that pleasure and pain are tied together.”

    Yeah. Proof. Someone else mentioned that I hadn’t “proved” some other thing in this thread. Proof is one of the first stumbling blocks you’ll have to overcome if you are ever to know anything. Proof is a bogus concept. Nothing can be proved in this world.

    “Proof in logic is merely a mechanical expedient to facilitate the recognition of tautologies in complicated cases.”
    –Wittgenstein in the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

    It’s very hard to explain to you what that means exactly. But basically, you either SEE SOMETHING, or you DON’T. This is how the world is constructed. Ask any scientist worth the name and he’ll explain to you that even THEY haven’t been able to prove anything. Newton’s Laws of Motion, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics — nothing has been proved. The laws of nature do not exist. Just because we have observed the sun rise every day for the past two thousand years does not mean it will rise tomorrow. We have constructed these so-called “laws” of nature from our observations these past two thousand years, but our laws could be a subset in some greater set of “laws” which completely change behaviour every, say, 40,000 years, so that we wouldn’t have been observing for long enough to notice that.

    So yeah, forget about proof. It’s a concept for the simple-minded.

    The point here is: Nietzsche sees that pleasure and pain are tied together. The question is: Do you?

    “3. so videogames are the pleasure half of science whereas ____ is the displeasure half?”

    You got it the other way around.

  210. Oh, and videogames are not ONE HALF of science. Videogames ARE science. It says it up there in one of those catchprashes in Tim’s reviews. I was quite impressed by that actually.

  211. ummmm, with regards to the list?

    im curious about how starcraft is viewed by the ABDN staff. not saying it deserves to be on the list. just curious.

  212. I view starcraft as a frighteningly well put together game that I am abjectly terrible at and it scares me.

  213. Goddamn, I forgot how great those Seth Killian SRK pieces were.

    Parrying, if you can do it, negates a distance game in the two dimensional brawler … but doesn’t that allow for a greater variety of characters?

    Nope. Just the opposite, actually. Certain character archetypes simply break down in the face of the parry system, like Guile/Remy. What once was dominant in SF2 is essentially parry bait in SF3.

    What good are grappling characters if the game can be dominated at a great distance? Do we really think that the Shotokan set of moves is the only set of moves worth investigating in a fighting game? (That, and Guile?)

    SF2 is designed in such a way that every single character can be a threat from full screen away. If not via fireball, a Honda headbutt, Blanka ball, Balrog Dashing Punch, Vega drop, Psycho Crusher, etc. The grapplers are no exception : T Hawk can dive kick you from anywhere on the screen, and Zangief can close a screen-wide gap almost in about two Banishing Flats (glowing palm).

    Though 3S tries to replicate this by enhancing the mobility of every character in the form of roster-wide, ultra fast dashes, a dash is not immediately threatening in the same way that, say, Bison’s Scissor Kick is in SF2 — Scissor Kick closes the distance between players and directly threatens both space and vitality in and of itself, and while a dash also closes the distance between players, it only presents an increased potential to threaten space and vitality. If you fail to counter a Scissor Kick, you’ve taken damage, even if you’ve blocked it. If you fail to counter a dash, you haven’t suffered an immediate, tangible penalty.

    Third Strike is not a bad game. It’s actually a very good game that has endured competitive play longer than any other Capcom fighter…except Super SF2 Turbo.

  214. to put starcraft on the list at this point basically amounts to saying it’s better than cave story, so i don’t think we’ll be seeing it here

  215. icy, the wittgenstein quote made a lot of sense to me, but it is not the same as saying “proof is a concept for the simple-minded.” Its saying, proof is a concept that is often misused by the “simple-minded,” and what it actually does is help you recognize things more easily. Right?

    Anyway, the point: my first question was sort of awkwardly posed, making it look like I was trying to accuse you of putting forth an unformed argument. I was actually just trying to get you to explain that part to me, because I couldn’t really get Nietzsche’s reasoning for the pain/pleasure principle (reminds me of Plato’s discussion of the subject from Phaedo) from that excerpt. So, I wanted the proof to help me understand. Certainly that’s not asking too much?

    Also, I always thought that proofs never “proved” anything because they always rested on premises, and premises are always arrived at through proofs, so there is this infinite cycle and nothing can ever be completed. Is that what you mean when you say there is no such thing as “proof”?

    To tie this post in with videogames, I would like to hear about how they are responsible for the displeasure that we are to receive from science.

  216. also i am trying to convince my friend that mortal kombat is terrible, is there any way I can get an expert to help me with this (some article, perhaps)?

  217. you can convince him it is terrible by booting that shit up and putting the controller in his hands

  218. Proof is a bogus concept. Nothing can be proved in this world.
    …The laws of nature do not exist. Just because we have observed the sun rise every day for the past two thousand years does not mean it will rise tomorrow.

    Mathematicians disagree. While all of math rests on fundamentally unprovable axioms, we can clearly prove things in the sense, “If we assume X, then Y.” If your problem is with axioms, could you give me a motivation for your close mindedness?

    Now, science is a whole different story. Of course scientists don’t ‘prove’ things… they use the scientific method. (You know… ‘science’) They observe and predict. Some observations are so reliable that we can say, “With virtually 100% certainty, this behavior will continue to act predictable.” Do you honestly believe the predictable behavior of things like gravity, electromagnetism, etc. do not exist simply because we may not have a complete view of them? That’s analogous to saying, “I can’t prove that these two magnets will attract, even though every observation of similar materials in history says they will.” Well, of course you can’t write this proof, but their attraction doesn’t give a damn if you can prove it or not… it exists without your validation.

    ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES NOW

    I’m sorry, but I have to defend the parry. Even if, at high-level play, the parry weakens fireball characters’ ability to control distance, the game had three iterations to balance this behavior. While the stakes are lower with a fireball in 3S (you’re not choosing between position and damage/block stun), it still controls position since, well, you have to use the parry. There’s still time your character must devote to the parry where they can’t use other moves. They still have to decide between parries, jumping, and pass-through moves.

    If the whole argument rests on “parry makes my distance games less dangerous,” then… well, yes. You’ve shown the game is different. Not competitively worse. It means the game requires more of you. You can still use the fireballs to close the distance, but then you have the second layer of mind games to play with your opponent: what you do after the parry and distance closing. And layers of mind games are awfully tasty to me.

    Also: Starcraft is awesome, I don’t care what you guys say T____T

  219. I think the point of the Nietzsche quotes was that the stress of knowing you might lose is the pain of playing videogames while success, a feeling that comes afterwards, rather than during the experience, is the commensurate pleasure.

  220. “icy, the wittgenstein quote made a lot of sense to me, but it is not the same as saying “proof is a concept for the simple-minded.”

    It really is. Any way you see it, it really is. Here’s two:

    1. If I show someone the tautology 100/2=50 and he doesn’t immediately see that it is a tautology, and requires “proof” (which proof is basically dividing both numerator and denominator of the fraction by 2), then I think it’s fair to say the man is simple-minded, if not outright retarded. Of course there are much more complicated tautologies than that, which ANY human being would be hard pressed to see immediately without intervening simplifying steps, but the more need you have for such steps the more simple-minded you are compared to someone who doesn’t need them. This is, after all, more or less our definition of simple-mindedness.

    2. Outside of logic, mathematics and the natural sciences, in which it is more or less understood that so-called “proof” is not really proof at all but merely “a mechanical expedient to facilitate the recognition of tautologies in complicated cases”, it is clear that whoever asks for proof in any philosophical question is being simple-minded. This is because the year is 2008 and the Tractatus was published in 1921 or something — I think 90 years should be enough time for one to read and (at least make an effort to) understand an 80-page book. Those who don’t make the effort, or, even worse, those who are not even AWARE that this is an effort that needs to be made if one is to be able to understand anything about philosophy in the year 2008, are basically living a whole century in the past, and by today’s standards should be considered simple-minded.

    But of course everyone understands fuck-all, and I still get people emailing me all the time asking me to “prove” some common-sensical point I made in one of my articles. Basically, the desire for proof is nothing more than an expression of laziness — proof-lovers are basically saying: “I don’t want to think, I don’t want to go out into the world and live and try to figure things out for myself: I want you to PROVE this to me, meaning to intepret the world to me to the point that I will not even be permitted to raise an objection!”

    Poor blind humanity!

    “Also, I always thought that proofs never “proved” anything because they always rested on premises, and premises are always arrived at through proofs, so there is this infinite cycle and nothing can ever be completed. Is that what you mean when you say there is no such thing as “proof”?”

    No. What I mean is that the concept of proof is as absurd as that of “free and unfree will”, “sin”, etc. It doesn’t exist. It’s merely a simplifying human fiction, which, like many other simplifying human fictions (straight lines, circles, deductions, refutations, the ego, the soul, the spirit, cause and effect, etc.), has its uses, but one that you must banish from your mind if you are to ever reach the highest levels of human understanding (i.e. philosophy). I’ll give you another Wittgensteinan quote on this subject:

    “The proof of logical propositions consists in the following process: we produce them out of other logical propositions by successively applying certain operations that always generate further tautologies out of the initial ones. (And in fact only tautologies FOLLOW from a tautology.)

    Of course that way of showing that the propositions of logic are tautologies is not at all essential to logic, if only because the propositions from which the proof starts must show without any proof that they are tautologies.”

    But how do we get those initial tautologies in everyday life, or indeed in philosophical thinking? Simply by LOOKING. By FEELING. By EXPERIENCING. Through the senses.

    But of course just as physical power varies between men so does the power of their senses. Some men can simply see further than others. But they can never PROVE the things that they see to those who are near-sighted. They can point them out, they can unveil them, they can show them. But they can never prove them.

    This fact is actually a blessing for idiots. If things could be proven, then the day would come when idiots would be excommunicated from society and left to rot in jails or wherever. This way everyone is entitled to an “opinion” — even the stupidest man, even the insane — and everyone’s happy.

    (PS. 1

    “Anyway, the point: my first question was sort of awkwardly posed, making it look like I was trying to accuse you of putting forth an unformed argument. I was actually just trying to get you to explain that part to me, because I couldn’t really get Nietzsche’s reasoning for the pain/pleasure principle (reminds me of Plato’s discussion of the subject from Phaedo) from that excerpt. So, I wanted the proof to help me understand.”

    This is all contemptible defensive chatter. You simply used the word ‘proof’ the same way all other retards use it, and now you want to make it seem as if you were being less of a fool than you in fact were. Forget it. I am too smart for shit like this. Just suck it up, learn, and be smarter next time.

    PS. 2

    As for ninjafetus, I can’t really help him, neither as far as philosophy is concerned nor on games.)

  221. It´s funny to think that this long out-of-the-point discussion was bound to happen here because it´s was only possible in the free land of ABDN rather than the narcissistic stalinism in Insomnia. Now, listening to the advise of Tim and leaving the grudge against icycalm apart, I´ll point something obvious to redirect the discussion to the point: this “best of all time list” is actually a Manifesto, so it must be judged more like a global message to the medium (just like manifestos in art movements). Tim always pointed towards a so-called “Revolution” and all that, and this is the beggining.

    Quote: “Also, there is something of a point to these reviews. I guess that won’t be apparent until all is said and done.” So I ask a question to all of you guys: what do you think about the aim of this reviews? My personal opinion is that this list is full of games that perhaps may not be “the best of all time” (taking too literally the idea of making a list turns you into an asshole, that´s my whole point against icycalm), but are the founders of paths that games must follow to have “masterpieces” in the future. My favorite game of all times is Earthbound (and it´s sequel, which perfected it as a game), but even Itoi knows that there´s no point in making another Mother game. By the way, Mother is weird because it´s not much of a game nor much of a story, but actually gets to convey feelings only possible to tell trough the format of a game, that is, to make a kind of “story” only possible in a game, but perhaps that does not have to do much with the future of videogames, because we can´t demand the extraordinary to happen once again.

    The whole point is: we want more things like this games. All these Manifesto games (at least, the ones I have played) obviously point towards a future: for example, it´s obvious that Metroid Prime had a very high potential flawed by it´s sequels, perhaps by itself. The whole thing about the title screen being the promise of something fucking big and the game not being at the height of that promise is for me essential (somebody said something like that in the comments, by the way that comment said more than the whole review). The point is, I believe, that the media (hate the word, but it´s the more neutral one we have) must listen to this games awesomeness to make brilliant things in the future.

  222. I really hope number one doesn’t turn out to be any of the following:

    1. Something really obvious, like Super Mario Bros or Civilisation or fucking Pong.

    2. A cop-out like “it hasn’t been made yet!” or “life!”

    3. Something I’ve already played (unless it’s…well, I won’t say it again) or something I cannot play.

  223. “If I show someone the tautology 100/2=50 and he doesn’t immediately see that it is a tautology, and requires “proof” (which proof is basically dividing both numerator and denominator of the fraction by 2), then I think it’s fair to say the man is simple-minded, if not outright retarded.”

    Assertion: 100/2=50

    Proof: 50*2=100

    AT LEAST YOU’RE STILL PRETTY GOOD AT STREET FIGHTER (II)

  224. wrestleman> With all due respect, writing that is reinforcing his point more than refuting it. You’re making an implicit assumption equivalent to the assertion. Which, I guess, is his point regarding tautological ‘proofs’.

    icycalm> Outside of logic, mathematics and the natural sciences, in which it is more or less understood that so-called “proof” is not really proof at all but merely “a mechanical expedient to facilitate the recognition of tautologies in complicated cases”, it is clear that whoever asks for proof in any philosophical question is being simple-minded.

    I completely agree with this, so I’m not sure what was so hopeless about what I wrote. I don’t have an issue with saying, “proofs for philosophical questions do not exist.” I had an issue with “Proof is a bogus concept. Nothing can be proved in this world.” You said yourself that proof has a valid concept: “a mechanical expedient to facilitate the recognition of tautologies in complicated cases.” This is semantics; we’re using the same word to describe multiple things.

    My other issue was also, most likely, semantics.
    The laws of nature do not exist. Just because we have observed the sun rise every day for the past two thousand years does not mean it will rise tomorrow.
    Now, what we refer to by ‘laws of nature’ is probably the issue here. I’m guessing your assertion is something along the lines of, “F = G * m_1 * m_2 / (r^2) is not a natural law… it’s a human construct describing nature.” When I hear ‘natural law,’ I think of the behavior rather than our description of it. Does gravity exist? Of course. Can we ‘prove’ it? A formal proof is not applicable. Do we expect the sun to rise tomorrow, regardless of proof? Of course! I understand you’re making a ‘black swan’ point here to argue against the incorrect use of proof, but if you’re going to be clear in your arguments, you should be clear in your language. Saying ‘natural laws don’t exist’ is misleading, at best.

    As far as fighting games go, we can disagree. 3rd Strike is fun to me, and I’ll stand by ‘different, but still deep.’ I can’t be a math teacher and let you get away with your comments on ‘proof,’ without clarification, though.

  225. “wrestleman> With all due respect, writing that is reinforcing his point more than refuting it. You’re making an implicit assumption equivalent to the assertion. Which, I guess, is his point regarding tautological ‘proofs’.”

    With all due respect, you are a faggot. The implicit assumption I’m making is that trying to prove 100/2=50 by “dividing both numerator and denominator of the fraction by 2″ is fucking ass-backward. I don’t know what kind of maths you teach but they aren’t elementary maths, the only kind I know and I get by just fine on the government dole spank you very much >:(

  226. “Assertion: 100/2=50

    Proof: 50*2=100″

    You did not get a word of it. Not a word. I’d say you are not even trying, but perhaps you are and this is just beyond you. Whatever.

    “I completely agree with this, so I’m not sure what was so hopeless about what I wrote.”

    Kid, you couldn’t pay me to go into that. Not to mention your second post.

    So, yeah. Philosophy class is over. Back to… whatever it was you were discussing before I joined you.

  227. hey hold on a moment ive got one;

    “Mankind craves definition as he craves lost innocence. He simply does not know what his life means until he says it. Until the day he dies he will grapple with mystery by trying to find the word for it. “The limits of my language,” Ludwig Wittgenstein observed, “are the limits of my world.” Man’s purifying motive is that he cannot let go of the Adam urge to name things—and finally, out of his unbearable solitude, to pronounce to others his own identity”

    yep that about sums it up, as for video games we can analyze forever, but it will always come back to memories, Gotham City will return to Metropolis along with Midgar. A constant colapsing of time towards points and memories. Until eventualy we reach singularity.

  228. oh yeah and thats why we look at video games in similar vain to film. They owe existance to that more than anything, in my unfounded opinion. Or should i say that films were the previous source of memory before games, thus games are infact a logical progression of film itself.

    The next step in human expression. Released from textual chains

  229. Games quite easily predate films. Electronic games were just a logical progression. It’s bowling without setting the pins up yourself, or D&D with a machine to figure out the damage for you.

  230. icy, I feel like we rarely disagree, but you always find a way to raise some sort of objection and then talk about something new or slightly different. for example, my quote about proofs.

    anyway, i actually like that, because i can usually learn something interesting as a result.

    back to street fighter:

    I wish the games would include training materials, because I honestly have no idea how to play fighters. I just bought soul calibur 4 and played it twice. I can’t break into it–I have no way of combining the knowledge of moves and movement I gain into any sort of strategy.

    It’s for the same reason that I can’t get into the SF II vs III argument, but I will at least say that III looks way cooler to me.

  231. yes i understand your point there, but at the time of electronic games collective human expression had already been altered by film. Thus electronic games contain “filmic” memory

  232. which is precisely why its

    “bowling without setting the pins up yourself, or D&D with a machine to figure out the damage for you”

  233. icycalm> It’s hilarious that when someone else makes a ridiculous claim, you have plenty of time and effort to jump on them and call them idiots, but when I call you on saying something ridiculous, you “can’t be paid to go look again.” The fact is that you quoted Wittgenstein and only understood it on a superficial level.

    Alright, downloading Cave Story now, so I’m not a liar!

  234. Re: #1, I can assure you that Tim isn’t just being a cock with it. Considering all the stuff that’s been brought up in the individual reviews, you could probably guess it yourself if you’ve played it.

    It’s Final Fantasy 7, like I said.

  235. somes, soul calibur 3 had very detailed training materials! it would be a CRYING SHAME if they were taken out in 4 (i wouldn’t know myself, i’m not next-generation yet)

  236. @icycalm: Your point about tautologies is only strictly true within the confines of propositional logic. With formal languages (i.e. first-order logic), you’ll see that tautologies are simply a subset of validities.

    But that’s not really the point, clearly somes was using the word “proof” to mean evidence, as it often does in colloquial usage. And you (as the ardent follower of Wittgenstein that you are) should be well aware of the importance of meaning in diction.

    I’m not sure if you are familiar with the concept of fractal wrongness — but if not, I assure you that everyone reading this message board has now been exposed to it in practice.

  237. “Unfortunately, EVERYTHING is related to videogames, in one way or another.”

    Well, yes that is true! In much the same way, everything is related in one way or another to Tim´s dick!

    Or, to put another way: Tim meant anything not DIRECTLY related to videogames. If I said that the characters of Reservoir Dogs were talking about videogames during their “Like a Virgin” monologue, well, it wouldn´t be completely false, but it sure as hell would not be completely true.

    As far as your views on “proof”, well, I would actually need to think about that for a bit longer. Because if I answer anything a at all, it would be only if it was so well constructed that it didn´t need me to argue about it with you afterwards. I don´t have the time or energy to do that these days.

    @ Inquisidor: I actually think that very same thing. This list is not quite about the best games of all times, it´s more about games that were great for a very special reason, games that must be passed down to the next generation, if we are ever to evovle this “medium”.

  238. I was wrong about Doom ruling out Half-Life 2. I have realized that, yes, the list is teaching lessons. Doom is about focus and simplicity. HL2 is about atmosphere and flow

  239. I didn’t see Half-Life 2 coming – it seems a bit out of place, really. I thought Portal was actually more likely.

    Most of the other games seem like leaner, more streamlined, predatory creatures.

    HL2 doesn’t really strike me as being quite so focussed or self-assured. Mario 3 and Mother 3 I kind of get, but HL2 sticks out like dogs’ balls.

    Alright, you’ve got me curious about #1 now.

  240. after this, i honestly can’t think of anything besides a cop-out for the #1 spot! (TOKYO PSYCHIC UNIVERSITY counts as a cop-out for the purposes of this comment)

  241. I got pretty hooked on Warcraft 3 a few years back and I honestly think that game has “best ever” chops. Fast action, quick to learn, requires razor sharp reflexes and flawless execution like an arcade game, has moderate character building mechanics like an RPG, and a finely tuned economic system. I know War3 has been kind of forgotten what with WoW overshadowing it and StarCraft 2 excitement but it is just a superbly done game! Too bad I was rubbish at it, actually I don’t think I was terrible but I certainly had no chance against most of the people on B.Net by then.

    p.s. I can’t wait for the Mother 3 fan translation. I hope its up to snuff!

  242. Tim already kind of fanfare-lessly announced that he’s working on a game, but somehow I suspect it’s not Tokyo Psychic University. I dunno, I get the impression that Tim has developed his ideas on video games into something a lot sharper than it was when he came up with TPU, and that he’d rather play with that new understanding than go back to something he came up with years ago. Besides, No More Heroes already beat him to the embarrassing white otaku protagonist.

  243. Wow, this comment thread has a lot of weird, off-topic and annoylingly internetty stuff in it…

    Anyhooo, my guess for number 1 is Portal. I just can’t see them leaving it out of the list. It is a beautiful, perfect example of everything this site stands for, including being very SHORT which only adds to the “crunchy” “fuck-you-and-your-50-hour-RPG” factor. Going against it is the popular internet-love for “cake=lie” and companion cube blabber, which I assume ActionButton would prefer to distance itself very far from. It also feels kind of icky to declare a game released less than a year ago as greatest of all time, but leaving it off the list would imply that Metroid Prime is better than it, and that feels REALLY icky.

    second guess: Super Mario Bros.

  244. That hinted-at “football game” still hasn’t showed up! I will guffaw in ecstatic glee and give everyone fist bumps if #1 is Madden (“MOST PROGRESSIVE GAME SERIES EVER”?).

  245. Or maybe the Madden explanation will invoke an Andy Warhol quote and say “Madden is better than a videogame, better than science: it’s good business.”

  246. I bet, somehow, they’ll make all our monitors display our reflection. hopefully in the same style as the pictures on this site.

  247. HAHAHA!

    If only Hideo Kojima designed computers for a living.

  248. How is HL2 not focused or streamlined? I’ve never felt so ‘carried’ by a game’s narrative flow
    Also, number 1 is The World Ends With You. It plays like how Tim described Tokyo Psychic University only even more amazing.

  249. Seriously?

    Maybe I’ll get over my Tetsuya Nomura problem and give it a try.

  250. All the teeny jabs at Metal Gear Solid 4 in these reviews are making me wonder when a full review for it will be out. I want to see if Tim and I agree on anything about it.

  251. i think the mini-jabs, as well as the other jabs in the MGS3 review, ARE the MGS4 review. or at least that’s what i like to think.

    what else is there to review? it’s built from the ground up to be a giant fan-gasim, and one last brain explosion featuring EVERY SINGLE known MGS character and plot point, (not to mention a glorified advertisement for the playstation 3) to be wrapped up in tin-foil and and served at four-hundred and crazy degrees.

  252. GS: trust me, i’m not fan of Japanese RPG bullshit but TWEWY makes all the outragous outfits make sense – you’re playing a Shibuya fashion kid hanging out with other Shibuya fashion kids. Of course things are going to look outrageous… not that there aren’t some ‘normal’ outfits
    I don’t love it ’cause of the clothes or the collectible powers or anything… i love it ’cause of the gameplay. You choose what enemies you fight, how strong they’ll be, and what level you’ll fight them at. Different levels + difficulty combinations give you different drops. Combat is impossibly kinetic – you’re always slashing, tapping, or moving with the stylus… and, if you’re good, controlling the top character with the d-pad. its awesome

  253. “How is HL2 not focused or streamlined? I’ve never felt so ‘carried’ by a game’s narrative flow”

    I thought HL2 was a bit clunky and shit in almost everything it did. It provided a heck of a good atmosphere, and the sense of being a regular nerdy guy who’s also some sort of revered saviour, and it was an enjoyable ride, but the actual STUFF you DO in the game really let it down for me.

    None of the weapons felt (or sounded) any good, the act of aiming felt flaccid, the vehicles were rubbish, the AI didn’t do much of anything, and for a game that looked kind of solid and real nothing really led where it should or did what it should.

    It also endlessly made me put a brick on the other end of a teeter totter or whatever so I could feel clever. Whoop de doo. Banging on and on about that bit in Super Mario Galaxy where you’re given what you need and then immediately tasked with doing the only thing you can do with it? HL2 has these moments dotted all through it, just dressed up as ugly brown and grey bricks and planks rather than magical unicorns and rainbows. Is that really better?

    Also, picking up bits and pieces of various percentage values of health and armour was intolerably old fashioned, even when this game was released. Hunting around for health after surviving an encounter really broke the flow of the game, and sucked me right out of the atmosphere that so much of the game worked so well to create. Are you really going to make me hunt for medpacks? Or let me paint myself into a corner, so I need to think about managing and reloading save games? Fuck off.

    And the music is shit.

    Look, I didn’t hate the game. I enjoyed huge chunks of it, even. There’s just something fiddly and irritating about every aspect of it, right down to the HUD. Right down to how you change weapons, which you can carry tons of, and are in weird groups. Lean, it is not.

    If I could be killed in a few hits (with damage conveyed visually, rather than by a FREAKING PERCENTAGE NUMBER) and was then respawned somewhere sensible and non-irritating, with no visibility into saving and loading, then maybe. If it ONLY had the gravity gun, then maybe.

    It did a lot of stuff better than most of its contemporaries, and probably should be played, even now. I’m not saying it’s not a good game, and I expect to see it in a lot of lists, near the top.

    Just not this one.

    Or mine.

  254. I’m a little surprised there’s no Sonic game on this list. It’s a pretty Action Button-y kind of series and I know for a fact that tim has (probably) masturbated while thinking of the guy before. Not because he’s a furry, mind. Shit, you can’t even talk about Sonic anymore without talking about furries :(

    Write a review about THAT

  255. negativelife:

    i’m almost 87% certain that number 1 is sonic heroes.

  256. Outrun 2 stands in for Sonic.

    Sonic just makes me sick now. Fucking Shadow the Hedgehog packing a goddamned colt 1911 semi-automatic pistol. It holds eight shots plus one in the chamber, but you probably shouldn’t load it all the way, or it’s more likely to jam, and remove the bullets from the clip when it’s not in use, or you might weaken the springs. You can increase stopping power by using hollow tip bullets. The pocket of air at the front end of the slug will sort of POP when it hits flesh.

    Shadow the Hedgehog is a complex character, dealing with issues regarding self-doubt and a complete inability to manage anger safely, which I must presume are somehow conducive to going fast? Are you running from your personal demons in that game?

    I try to avoid Starmen.net these days for all the subtly sexualized fanart of Ness cuddling with his dog.

  257. gilbert, as far as i can tell, that is how english-speaking mother fandom “is”! which is why i’m totally not very enthusiastic about this mother 3 fan translation thing.

  258. EightEyes I don’t mean this as an insult in any way but it sounds like you just wanted HL2 to be Halo.

  259. Yeah!
    I mean the weapons aren’t supposed to feel good, i don’t think. I felt guilty the first time i shot an unseeing enemy with a pistol. I’m not sure why, but i did. The enemies are obstacles. Also, if the health packs weren’t physical items you couldn’t pick them up with the gravity gun. same with ammo and grenades and such

  260. “EightEyes I don’t mean this as an insult in any way but it sounds like you just wanted HL2 to be Halo.”

    Not really – I mean, we’ve already got Halo, for one thing. Three of them! I like them just fine. I’d rather Half-Life 2 be Half-Life 2… just maybe a bit MORE Half-Life 2 than it is.

    Half-Life 2 is a good, maybe even a great game. It’s just not a particularly lean game, in my opinion. Nor was it precisely to my taste, but I don’t think that it was intended to be. I’m not a serious or hardcore player of shooters… but I do happen to like Halo a bit better than Half-Life 2, maybe just because it IS the leaner game. It’s also a fair bit stupider, and has its own problems, but it does a narrow range of things winningly and well.

    I pretty much hated Gears of War (again, shooters, particularly brown ones, aren’t really my bag). But going by the criteria of the list, and the other entries in it, I can see that it fits beautifully. It’s a lean, sharp, muscular game that takes a handful of things it can do, and chokes the shit out of them. In a good way.

    I’ve been enjoying seeing this list unfold, and not directly in proportion to my agreement with it. I liked seeing Gears (a game I hate) on the list, just as much as I liked seeing a few games I really love on the list, because it plays into the “oh I see what you’re doing here, it all makes perfect sense now” thing. Yeah, I personally believe that Half-Life 2 is a worse game than some of those below it, and some games not on the list at all. That doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It just seems like it doesn’t meet the stated criteria as well as the other games (the ones I’m familiar with, at least).

    I’m happy to be disagreed with, and happier still to be proved wrong. Just my 2c.

  261. Uuuugh.

    I blame Smash Brothers. The pederasts and fetishists would’ve never found us out if not for Smash Brothers. Why can’t these dweebs jerk off to sloppy blowjob action like those of us who aren’t as bad as Hitler do?

  262. “EightEyes I don’t mean this as an insult in any way but it sounds like you just wanted HL2 to be Halo.”

    Actually, I just read back over what I wrote, and it really DOES sound like I want HL2 to be Halo. Hmm. Well spotted!

    Anyway, I wonder which entry is the one that’s supposed to rile us up? The #1 entry, I suppose – none of the others seem *too* obviously provocative.

    It’s like a badly-designed puzzle. What’s a better game than SMB3, that’s also “this sort of thing” (as defined by the other 24)? That’s hard enough – but if its inclusion is also intended to rile us up? Damn – I’m going to need to check the FAQ.

  263. If it ain’t number 1, the entry made to anger people was probably Secret of Evermore. No one liked that game back then.

  264. Oh! Okay. Thanks! Secret of Evermore is one of the (only a few!) games on the list I haven’t played, so I didn’t pick up on that.

    How about Street Fighter II for #1 then? Go on. You know you want to.

  265. i think that this list is saying that games that are made by more or less one guy who doesn’t even really care (or possibly even know) that much about “videogames” usually turn out to be pretty good.

  266. Street Fighter II ain’t gonna be number 1 (though it, in Hyper Fighting form, is occasionally my personal number 1!)

    Though, I mean, if it isn’t SF2 and it isn’t Mother 2 and I don’t think it’s Sonic (seriously though I am beginning to entertain the idea), I’m running out of ideas in relation to games I traditionally associate with tim. So it’ll probably be something bland like Tetris or something stupid or stupidly inspired. Just don’t be FFXII, dawg.

  267. Hell, there’s about a 25% chance that the dude saying it’s Tokyo Psychic University 20XX is right. Or something similarly non-existent.

  268. Wait check it out–here is my TOP FIVE CHOICES FOR THE PROBABLE ACTION BUTTON NUMBER ONE GAME OF ALL TIME, LIVE-BLOGGED AND PRESENTED BY TACO BELL:

    1. Tokyo Psycgic University 20XX
    2. Tetris
    3. River City Ransom
    4. Sonic
    5. Brain Training

  269. A hinted at football game, eh? Let’s hope it’s Tecmo (Super) Bowl #1!

  270. I think the number one game will rile folks up not because it’s an Asshole selection, but because it’s not a handjob for whatever series currently has the biggest and most disgusting fanbase.

  271. I’m just hoping he puts up a fake #1 and leaves it up for a couple days to get everyone riled up, only to reveal the real one later.

  272. i bet it’s one of those BRAND NEW EXTRA PARAGRAPH deals with the 4-star smash brothers brawl review

  273. “i think that this list is saying that games that are made by more or less one guy who doesn’t even really care (or possibly even know) that much about “videogames” usually turn out to be pretty good.”

    Exactly.

    Guys, it’s obviously Another World. That’s been my call from the beginning.

    Maybe, maybe, River City Ransom.

    Watch me be totally wrong, now, and look an asshole.

  274. maybe there won’t be one, because there were already two #14 games, and that makes 25 games just as promised

  275. Wasn’t the internet last year’s top game. I wonder if it will show up now in the top spot as well.

  276. that would be not just a cop-out but a ridiculous, stupid cop-out, so maybe it will be!

  277. i don’t see how anything can be a “cop-out.”

    i mean its not like this list as a “list” even makes sense by any evident criteria.

  278. WORLD ENDS WITH YOU is TOKYO PSYCHIC UNIVERSITY

    seriously. read the Tokyo Psychic University design doc/idea. most of that stuff made it into WEWY

  279. After reading the HL2 review and remembering that Portal was tied with Pac Man CE for GOTY 2007 here on Actionbutton.net, I’m agreeing with other folks that think it could be #1.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to that, but I’d like to be surprised.

  280. somes, i think you’ll find the criteria listed in the introductory paragraphs above the list proper. they’re more than just some bullshit, honestly, which is why this manifesto has been such a fun experience.

    i will probably be honestly disappointed by the probably inevitable cop-out, but we’ll see.

  281. Can a single choice on a list of video games remove cruelty from the human experience? Find out tomorrow!

  282. That is, if it’s an actual/traditional videogame. Not along the lines of minesweeper, or solitare (nice for when I’m taking a crap and I want to focus on something besides my package.)

  283. to sum up any possible #1, i might think.

    - NOT god hand
    - ghosts and goblins
    - space war
    - pokemon

    although none of those matter, because it’s sonic heroes. all the evidence points right to it.

  284. I can’t believe I’m wasting mental energy on this.

    This means that THEY’VE WON.

    Wasn’t there a post earlier offering icycalm the opportunity to remove his posts once the #1 game is revealed? Does that mean that the #1 is, maybe:

    a) one of icycalm’s favourite games?
    b) something that proves some kind of point that he’s made?
    c) something that changes the nature of the whole exercise?
    d) THIS VERY THREAD THAT WE’RE POSTING IN RIGHT NOW! OH MY GOD IT’S COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!! WE’RE LITERALLY ALREADY INSIDE IT!!!

    I dunno if Sonic Heroes fits the bill.

    All I can say is that if it’s a cheeky cop-out, it had better be VERY CHEEKY INDEED.

  285. final fantasy 7: advent children

    it’s not a movie so much as a non-interactive game

  286. OR, in a dick-gripping twist, it’s super mario galaxy, as an example of the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of the CRUNCH and FLOW!

    or, it’s probably…a good…video game, yeah.

  287. If the icycalm comment meant anything, maybe a Civ is the #1? We’ll see for ourselves in a few hours…

    I’m curious–which of these games have you folks NOT played? I haven’t played:

    Spartan
    Monster Hunter
    Secret of Evermore
    Dragon Quest V
    Breath of Fire V
    Winning Eleven 7 (I have played the pictured WE8, so maybe I get half-credit)

  288. i bought Spartan after this
    i HAVEN’T played:
    Monster Hunter, Winning Eleven, Dragon Quest, Breath of Fire, Winning Eleven, Mother 3, Pac-Man CE, Lost Vikings (5 minutes of LV 2 dosen’t count), Street Fighter 3, Gears of War (a few minutes with a friend dosen’t count) and i don’t think i’ve played that Panzer Dragoon. or that Katamari Demarcy. or Metal Gear Solid, ikaragua, outrun 2

    I’ve finished:
    HL2, Metroid Prime (okay, i didn’t beat the last boss, but i’ve seen most of it)

    i plan on buying all the ones that i can get for the PS2 or DS. except for SFIII

  289. Whoever said God Hand: yeah. That could be it instead of River City Ransom. WHO THE FUCK KNOWS??!!?!?

    Games on this list I have not played:

    Spartan
    Monster Hunter Whatever
    Dragon Quest 5
    Lost Vikings
    Winning Eleven 7

    Games I haven’t played very much:

    Secret of Evermore
    Outrun 2
    Pacman CE

    Games I played a decent amount but didn’t like:

    Gears of War
    Cave Story

    Games I haven’t played because FUCK HURRY UP ALREADY:

    Mother 3

    I can get behind everything else on here.

  290. Christ man, I’m on the edge of my makeshit seat over here. What the fuck time does this usually update? I never paid attention to that until now.

    Also, uh, yeah, I think River City Ransom is a pretty good guess. God Hand or Civ would have been decent, but he’s already kind of said that it isn’t either of those, so.

    If it’s The World Ends With You I’m going to be pretty upset! I think my Tim-faith might even be a little… shaken, if you know what I mean.

    Or maybe the review of whatever it is won’t even be by Tim. That would be funny. Maybe it’s one of those 300-word James reviews. Or something by Icy!

  291. seriously PLAY WORLD ENDS WITH YOU. i mean not only is it Tokyo Psychic University it has so many interesting and downright fun game design choices its kinda insane

  292. It also has downright clumsy/obstrusive/frustrating/ugly design choices, though.
    Tokyo Psychic University wouldn’t have poorly disguised fetch quests, for one thing.

  293. hilariously enough, a really boring-looking graphical adventure game called “tokyo psychic high school” was just released like two weeks ago.

  294. 8128: yeah but TWEWY kinda justifies the fetch quests in-game. seriously i don’t know why people aren’t talking about this game more. lame aesthetics aside its actually a fun game

  295. BAM

    the username that started it all(TM) is back in black baby

  296. That review makes me love Metal Gear even more. Videogames are bullshit, people, and that is the theme of the entire Metal Gear series.

  297. I hope so much, that one day a video game will come close and then trancend Stalker.

  298. hey, what does it take to make one of those videos for the site? i’d like to give it a shot.

  299. Bought OutRun 2 (Coast to Coast edition), Dragon Quarter, and Pacman CE after reading this. But really Tim, I doubt that MGS2 postmodern article was written as a joke six years ago.

  300. Check the link on the top right “Everything you wanted to know about pushing the action button”. Tim’s looking for more video people.

    I had responded to Tim’s call for more writers with a… fairly mediocre review of Guitar Hero (I’m not really much of a writer) and a link to one of my videos, and he asked me to do the official ABDN movie.

    I think it’d be great to have another video guy for some like, friendly competition.

  301. The cool thing about making movies about video games is you can literally just point the camera at yourself while you hold a controller. The toughest part about making movies is usually finding actors, so I’m finding these to be a hell of a lot easier than most of my movies.

  302. Pointing a video camera at your hands holding a video game controller sounds pretty difficult!

  303. actors aren’t really a problem. i got a few people i always use for my films. the issue sometimes can be getting them to try to focus for a few seconds haha.

  304. Hahaha.

    I’ve given up on making a feature until I can afford to pay people, because like, even if you have two friends who are 100% reliable, you have a dozen who are not.

    Either that, or I’ll come up with something like Tetsuo Iron Man, where it’s just three or four actors through the whole film, and one of them is the director himself.

    The worst for me was when I had actors leave while I was setting up a shot. Not showing up is relatively tolerable, but leaving while I’m adjusting the zoom lens is just shitty.

  305. word.

    i learned the feature part the hard way. i started shooting something akin to a “pilot” and i had a good amount of people move away, or bail. so i’ve had to constantly rework things again and again. but the best part about that is the script is getting better. haha.

    usually when i do shorts, i sometimes do one-three actors, then i usually play any small part or short bit. or, sometimes i play a main character, because one of my friends are so dense (or drunk) that they just aren’t getting it.

    yeah, but that’s pretty lame about the leaving actors thing. maybe start bribing with sandwiches? people love sandwiches.

  306. Yeah, no sandwiches until after the shoot.

    Hoping everyone shows up is like jumping from vine to vine, suspended in mid-air and praying that the next one is actually attached to something.

    I always figured that like, ideally, you’d have a dozen friends who are also directors, and you act in all of their movies, if only to obligate them to eventually act in your movie. Plus, your odds at success are improved twelve-fold when you’ve got twelve guys all trying to sell a movie, and they all owe each other personal favors.

    But fuck, try to find eleven guys in driving distance with the work ethic to see a short film through to completion, much less a feature.

  307. if i had friends who were all directors, then i’d have about 20 more movies than i’ve got now. or, more angry friends wondering why i won’t show up to their shoot.

    the key is sandwiches man. people will murder for a good sandwich.

  308. as a hopeless mgs retard whose affection for the series has only been bolstered its impossible, freakish, shameless fourth part — and you’re right, i don’t remember the last time i watched a good movie — i’m pleased to hear that kojima’s dialogue swings in japanese. i’d wondered if that business with ‘fate’ and ‘destiny’ wasn’t an attempt to translate some nuance in the original japanese — but mgs’s english scriptwriters have never deserved the benefit of the doubt, and i should’ve spotted that line for the nasty piece of pseudoelegant variation that it turns out to be

  309. MGS would lose a lot if it wasn’t so damn comedically awkward in it’s translations. I like the inelligance of the American versions, as the series has always been a comedy to me.

  310. WE HAD A DEAL, FAG! Minesweeper was going to be number one and I wasn’t going to so much as hairline fracture your clavicle. But I see you’ve left me little choice in the matter. :(

    My sack is packed and I’m ready to get on a plane. Now, if I could only remember where you lived (I think you forgot to mention it in your last article… no, wait, there it is, right in the first sentence). Fag.

  311. wrestleman:

    :(

    i mention both the US and japan in the first sentence, and i don’t specify which one i live in, if either.

    also notice throughout the article i use the european title of the game :(

  312. Awesome job by the guys at ABDN. These reviews are easily absorbed, and lots of the points made are the intuitive kind I acknowledged (but didn’t know how to describe) when playing these games.

    Great reads, Tim and others.

  313. tim and anyone who enjoyed this list:

    if your taste in games is anything like your taste in music, you must listen to Pink Flag by Wire immediately! (and maybe Bee Thousand by Guided by Voices and Alien Lanes also by Guided by Voices)

  314. hey, uh, is Super Mario Advance 3 a good way to enjoy SMB3 on the go? were there any changes to it that make it inferior to the original?
    (also thanks for the good reads)

  315. You’ll be missing shitty NES graphics artifacts and a few vertical lines of resolution.

  316. this whole thing was linked on metafilter.com… some interesting comments. and a few dumb ones

  317. This deserves to be reproduced in full:

    “I personally think that Actionbutton.net are the hipsters of game review. virtually everything they say is directly motivated by whether or not someone is going to think it’s either a) the gimme choice or b) the obvious anti-gimme choice. The idea that they think Metal Gear Solid 3 is the number 10 best game of all time, but metal gear solid 1 isn’t even on the list is exemplary of this. Anyone and Everyone loved MGS1. It’s a gimme. No one liked MGS2, it’s the anti-gimme. MGS3, which was better than 2, at least, involved regularly eating wild animals for no other reason than kojima wanting to be known as a revolutionary video game realist. You had to change your clothing every time you moved from one type of ground to the next in order to maintain your camouflage. the old style hiding behind things and sneaking around patrols gameplay was almost entirely eradicated in favor of dress-me-up Snakey style costume and makeup changes. There is a point in the game where you they make you climb a ladder (you have to hold the up button, it is not automated) for several minutes while nothing happens. it gets so boring that they actually have the theme song to the game (a james bond parody that is actually one of the awesome parts of the game) slowly fade in to break up the monotony. You start the game off with a silencer, which breaks early in the game and cannot be replaced. Despite the so called realism of having to change your clothes to camouflage into your environment better and having to eat periodically to keep from suffering from total fatigue, they didn’t think realism was sufficient reason to restrict the number and size of items you can carry so stealthy snake spends the entire game carrying several dozen items on him ranging from binoculars to several large cages of live animals you’re hanging onto so you can eat them later. If you kill an animal and carry it’s carcass on you, the meat eventually goes bad, in another tip of the hat to realism, but they fail to explain why this happens after at most an hour’s time in a game that only takes place over a day or two. During the game, I probably ate 40 different animals. In a day. 40 animals in a day. I had to, or else I would scream and pass out on the ground from exhaustion, to say nothing of being totally unable to steady my shooting hand when I even manage to stay awake.

    This is the number 10 game of all time, for them. Sure.

    Out Of This World is another example. The truly old school know and love it, so it has the hipster bonus points that saying something like “I like their first album, but I think they sold out after that” has. They could have gone with the more commonly known and better selling Flashback for the genesis, which had virtually identical gameplay, but that’s like saying you think Nirvana’s Nevermind was better than Bleach. Everyone thinks that and you’re not cool if you go with what everyone thinks. They could have gone with the even older originator of the gameplay style and chosen the original Prince of Persia, but that’s a gimme. So Out Of This World it is, because then you get to sound like you must really know your shit to so confidently declare something so unpredictable as your number 1.

    Of course, they also adopt the hipster pose of only half-assedly making these declarations. “well, if we HAVE to pick a number one…” It’s such a bald-faced affectation for them to have adopted this pose in a list of their own choosing that no one asked them to make. Oh, we don’t WANT to make a number one choice, but we’ll do it if you INSIST. But no one insisted. It’s a plea for attention by using some milquetoast half-assed controversy. They’ve been pimping this idea that Gears of War is one of the best games of all time (notably while slamming Bioshock at the height of its media frenzy) specifically to generate demand for this nonsense list of theirs because, although Gears of War is a fine game, the idea that it’s the 6th best of all time is almost laughable. Even among 3rd or 1st Person shooters, the gameplay’s fun factor and claim to fame is entirely it’s excellent cover system. The story is generic and the characters are unoriginal to the point of comedy (holy shit! beefy and grim space marines! the only black character speaks like samuel l jackson!). That’s the number 6 game. Of all time. This is the equivalent to all the hipsters who say they love Brittany Spears.

    It’s just so obviously all based on posturing. They’re trying to make a name for themselves by being the Pitchfork Media of Video Games criticism. Blech. I’ll be interested when this list includes Beyond Good and Evil, Day of the Tentacle and Fallout.”

    There. This guy said it best. Now no one ever has to say it again.

  318. What gives videogame sites to always use the word “we” when obviously one person is writing it? I see hate or overrated reviews (typically) on IGN and they say “we” “we” “we” everywhere, like they all have the same opinion. And this site does too? Is this list justified enough to say that it IS, in fact, this site’s Top 25 Games, or someone’s?

    The list is somewhat well-reasoned, but nowhere near the kind of list I would create, of course. Many of these are recent and fresh in one’s mind, like MHP2G, Gears of War, Mother3, the DQ5 port (?), and Bangai-O spirits..meh, I don’t know what to think, but the #1…is especially NOT justified enough. Is it in honor of the site, or is the site in honor of it? Why honor the creator so much when Pixel worked so much harder (well probably..) on Cave Story (although it’s still on the list)?

  319. The site and the manifesto are both in honor of two things:

    1- Sensible, mathematically sound, logical level design built to take advantage of and focus on a core game mechanic.

    2- Rock and Roll.

    The arguments put forth regarding these games are largely objective and based on logic rather than taste, so this time, it’s more like scientific researchers saying “We discovered that…”. When IGN does it, it’s for the same reason they would have writers use pseudonyms in the old pulp magazines, and hand the pseudonym off to their replacement if they were fired.

  320. solid wii:

    You, sir, seem to have never heard of the “editorial we”! (Though, from the looks your username, you have heard of the wii, lol)

    Quoth wikipedia: “The editorial we is a similar phenomenon, in which editorial columnists in newspapers and similar commentators in other media refer to themselves as we when giving their opinions. Here, the writer has once more cast himself or herself in the role of spokesman: either for the media institution who employs him, or more generally on behalf of the party or body of citizens who agree with the commentary.”

  321. You know the royal we, man, the editorial… look, the nihilists got the fucking briefcase, man.

  322. Man, I seriously couldn’t help but recall that line as well.

    :(

    Although hey, maybe that’s sort-of a good thing.

  323. So, will are you guys considering to put Monster Hunter 3 in the list?

    Rogers said that “Monster Hunter 2G” because it was the newest installement.

    So, within logic, that must happen.

  324. short answer: hell no.

    monster hunter 3 is for wii. if you want to play your wii with friends in starbucks, you’d have to carry your TV onto the train. we are not willing to do this!

    if they make another monster hunter for PSP, sure, as long as it’s better.

  325. Tim, are you going to turn this into a 100 list over the years?

  326. not gonna lie, this feature-zombieing kinda seems like a cheap ploy for hits developed on a whim

  327. dozer: maybe not!

    freeman: you are wrong :(

    i developed this whim maybe six months before actually writing the list. i wanted to do 33 games, though i wasn’t sure about the order. i knew that tetris would be #30, and i knew what numbers 26-29 would be.

    i just wasn’t sure about 31, 32 and 33. those three are eternal placeholders. i think it’ll be hilarious to rotate whatever hot new games into the 32 or 33 position over the years until i get sick of doing so.

    at any rate, this isn’t a ploy for hits — because we’re already getting the hits from my psychotic pieces on kotaku.com.

    no, no, this is a ploy to give the “hits” something to do.

  328. Hey Tim! Ario said a while back that you were going to include Hideo Kojima’s “Zone of the Enders 2″ in this list.

    You still have intention to do so?

    (btw, those last posts have been simply awesome)

  329. tim I tried to comment on your kotaku thing but I don’t think it worked?

    basically I think it would’ve been better if you didn’t talk about video games. in fact I’m pretty sure you were probably writing something else and then decided to turn it into Kotaku Column with enough talk of Tetris and Mario to link up with your action button stuff.

    I was a little creeped out though because I’ve been thinking a lot about Tetris and Mario lately too

    LOVE and NUMBERS. do you think it is possible to actually make a game about falling in love, or is the inherent need to tie these things to progress, and tie progress to numbers going to make all attempts completely offensive? I think there’s a lot to say about this marriage (lolgetit) of emotional concepts to the inherent calculations that make up every game.

  330. Oh man, I need to play Space Invaders Extreme / Extreme 2 (is there any reason to play the first with the second out?)

    But my DS’s shoulder buttons are broken, save for the right trigger which works almost consistently. Not that this would prevent me from playing Space Invaders (I don’t even know what control scheme they might’ve offered outside the left-right-fire setup). It makes me sad because I have a slightly harder time playing Bangai-O now that I don’t have the luxury of playing around with EX as much as I used to.

  331. Ohmygod, I love Action Button.
    I never would have thought that the emotional, historic, cultural, and nostalgic, importance that is, for me and my generation, contained in Video Games, could ever be fully captured in the written word, until I read Tim Rogers (et al).

  332. you are late to this party! though hey, welcome, nonetheless.

    this website might be all fancy and new, soon. and with new reviews!

  333. Wow. After clawing my way down that dense and bewildering shaft of comments…I’m just going to chill here at the bottom and catch my breath for a bit. Ah.

    You know, leaving this list incomplete makes you no better than a greasy little 5th grader who’s left his controller to raid the snack drawer while his Mum is out. I am the blue hedgehog in this scenario, by the way.

    Tap tap tap

  334. I have just spent the past three days reading every one of these reviews. Zealously repentant, I put myself before the congregation and admit that I have only played six games on this list (SMB3, Half-Life 2, Portal, Katamari Damacy, Tetris- and because it could be so readily found, Canabalt). I am now fully determined to play the other 27 (23). I suppose Another World is as good a place to start as any. I do really want to get my hands into DQV, though, having dedicated an entire year of my life to the GBC iteration of Dragon Warrior III way back in 7th grade. I can never decide whether, had I played it more recently, I would prefer it to FFVI. Hm.

    So, for this personal project to attain optimal video game enjoyment: I’ll need a PS2 again, an actually functional 360, to dust off my Wii (especially for the Virtual Console function), to fix up my laptop… am I missing anything?

  335. By that logic, FFVIII is two whole integers better than FFVI. I don’t think even the most hardcore leather fetishist would agree with that math.

    But in all seriousness, you do make Dairy Queen Five sound pretty great for all of the reasons I loved III and did not even know how to explain- except fully realized in a cogent plot where the characters matter. Consider me sold.

    Also- as long as we’re shopping for potent portables, Chrono Trigger: is the DS version an acceptable simulacrum of the original?

  336. I just found this site after a Tim Rogers QA thingy article on Kotaku. I then remembered I read Tim’s “Japan:” article a while ago, and the immensely good writing found me here.

    Good God.

    I have nothing to say in the face of the Manifesto, short of mentioning my petulance in not having played most of them. But by Jove I’m going to make an effort.

    I’ve noticed of late a certain ennui in my game time, that somehow somewhere a certain itch was no longer being scratched. I then started playing Godhand, and hungrily reading every review on this site. I just want to say, thank you for the Manifesto, and thank you for giving me a home on the internet. I had thought I was going mad in the face of the entire blagoweb and 99% of games that came out in the past decade.

  337. So I finally bought DQV (the DS version) and played the first five hours today, but it only took me about thirty minutes to realize it was a goddamn masterpiece. I still have DQIV fresh in my memory, and although I liked it quite a bit it’s AMAZING how much better V is right from the start. It’s almost unbelievable, when I try to think of the impact it must have made back in 1992.

    One thing I particularly like about it (so far, at least… I just escaped from the slave labor) is how much it manages to make “set pieces” and “plot scenarios,” etc. out of normal, classic RPG forms. Final Fantasy VI sort of invented the concept of using elaborate set pieces in the place of regular dungeons to tell a dynamic story, but DQV manages to do just as well or better (probably better) with the tried-and-true methods of overworld, towns, dungeons, and scripted dialogue scenes.

  338. I’ve been playing through Nier recently, and the simple charm of the Dragon Quest NPCs as I recognize them seems to be leaking out here, which is of course an awesome thing. Now if only the actual gameplay was any good.

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  341. I might be the only who noticed in Tim’s recent Zedla:SS arcticle: landstalker is #27. Now I need to stop worrying about #26, 28, 29, and finish playing all the games on the list, and god hand.

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